Enveloping Tactic

[Crimson Castle]

Hello,

I've been fighting against the Alomond faction for awhile. They use their militia units and thrash my spearmen and swordmen units to bits.

I tried flanking them and using Hannibal's tactics of enveloping them from the side flanks - see the Battle of Cannae. But being hit from the rear doesn't seem to worry the muslims, they take it in their stride and mow down my front men before reversing and killing the pesky enemies attacking their rear.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/cannae.html

I hope the next patch increases the vulnerability of troops being hit from the flanks and the rear.

[lonewolf371]

It's already a pretty large responsibility, yet heavy units such as Almohad Urban Militia can wade through flank attacks, especially with High valour. I haven't tested it but most likely a unit of Gothic Knights would hold out against two units of Lancers when the Lancers were attacking the Goths from both sides. Heavy units' weaknesses are to arrows, try using those instead of pole-arms and swordsmen.

[Nowake]

I think it's a problem with valour ... maybe your general is not so high rnaked as his ...

Plus, try forming the center (the formation that has to hold its ground) with spearmen, or something like that ... They usually make less casualties, but have a bigger endurance, thabks to their formation and shields. You really have to experiment a keen eye untill those kind of maneuvres will succed. I becoming an expert http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and all I can say is that timming is crucial; wait until the enemy unit it's fully engaged, even if your men support heavy looses. And take care not to be outflanked yourself.


In order for Cannae to happend, Hannibal needed a very stupid enemy general ... found in the person of the roman butcher Varro http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Papewaio]

Flank and rear attacks decrease morale... however that is not going to do much if the troops you surround are super troops like the basic AUM. Early in the game they are the best troops pound for pound.

Think of it this way try surrounding British Red Coats or Imperial Romans in tortise formation, it ain't going to do much without some heavy duty missile support.

For best results attack the AUM at the same time period attack from the front with Feudal Sergeants and from the sides with Militia Sergeants and the back with Mounted Sergeants.

[Nowake]

Sorry, but Feudal Sergeants are crap ... Even spearman are better, much more better ...

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]I hope the next patch increases the vulnerability of troops being hit from the flanks and the rear.

Forgive my blunt speech, but... Hell no

Here are the current 1.1 combat modifiers for your perusal (a copy-paste from totalwar.com), I marked the relevant ones with asterisks.

COMBAT MODIFIERS

MORALE

States

Impetuous: 10+
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6 (Cran's note: the rout point is -16. Units will keep routing until their morale rises above -6.)

Negative

Loose Formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (depends on quality of troop, elite only afraid of elite, etc.)
*One flank threatened: -2
*Two flanks threatened: -6
*Charged in flank: -4
*Charged in flank by cavalry: -6
Charged by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (during the first few seconds): -8
After the General's death: -2 (for the rest of the battle)
Routing Friends: Up to -12
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking missle fire: -2 (-4 if weapons cause fear)
Unit is Very Tired: -2
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is completely exhausted: -8
*Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)

Positive

*Protected Flanks: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Enemies Routing: Up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
*Winning: Up to +6
Impetuous Charge: +4 (when Knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4
General in unit: +2
Close proximity to general: +1 morale per star
Far away from general: +1 morale per 2 stars

COMBAT

Formations

+3 atk, -3 def for wedge formation
+2 def, -2 atk for hold formation

Spear/pikes

+1 per rank to def (up to 2 for spear, 4 for pike)
+1 per 2 ranks to atk
+1 per rank to atk when charging
No rank bonuses in forests (may be bugged)

Terrain

+1 atk, +1 def for camels in desert
-2 atk, -2 def for cavalry in forests
Bonus to atk for being uphill (depends on height)
Penalty to def for being downhill (depends on height)

Fear of camels

+4 def for camels against horses
+2 atk for camels against horses

Positional

*+5 atk for flank attack
*+7 for rear
*+2 for charging into flank/rear
*+6 to atk when 'pushing back' the enemy
*-5 def when squeezed too tight

Exhaustion

-2 atk when quite tired
-3 atk, -1 def very tired
-4 atk, -2 def exhausted
-6 atk, -3 def totally exhausted

Routing

+4 atk against routing enemies
-8 def if routing
----------------------------------------

As ya can see, quite a few of those are applied in a flanking/rear attack situation. Cavalry also get the beefier bonuses, so the preferable hammer/anvil combo is some good holding units like spears or swords in hold/hold as the anvil and cavalry as the hammer.

If you have problems with AUMs chopping up your anvil unit before the hammer hits them, try to improve the timing of the sandwiching maneuver. Also be sure that you're lining up the hammer unit before attacking from the rear, they're much more effective when all men in the hammer hit at the same time. When charging into the flanks, try wedge formation.

And finally, Feudal Sergeants are much better than ordinary Spearmen. I can't dig up their combat stats right now, but they have better morale and most likely better combat stats too.

[CBR]

Yes flank/rear attacks are already working fine IMO.

Maybe the Almohads had a super general giving lots of bonuses to his troops.

Feudal sergeants have better morale (+2) and +1 attack compared to Spearmen.

CBR

[baz]

well the flanking and rear attack already have substacial values (see crans post*) if 2 armies that are fairly equal in florin cost fight one another then flanking will decide the battle .. however, maybe the almos have a more expensive range of units 2 v0 units of swords cannot be expected to beat a far superior v4 AUM.

[Lord Of Storms]

Quote[/b] (Alita @ April 19 2003,23:44)]Hello,

I've been fighting against the Alomond faction for awhile.
I think those guys are nuts?

[Heraclius]

strange, my flank attacks against muslims generally go quite well. I'm a Byzantophile and spend much of my MTW time flanking Muslims but now that you mention it it is much harder to rout the Almohads from behind than the Turks or Egyptians.

[rasoforos]

I would expect this to happen if you are using very heavilly armored units that get tired in the desert. Units with 0 fatigue lines left would not syrvive much in the desert. My flanking attacks usually work fine too. what kind of units did you use?

[LadyAnn]

Heavy units' weaknesses are to arrows, try using those instead of pole-arms and swordsmen.

I must disagree on this. If you refer to abalesters and crossbows or the longbow's armor piercing, then maybe that is, but the regular arrows are not good against armored units, especially those who have shields. The main reason why pavise arbalesters are so good is because archers are not good anymore against heavy armored units.

Pole-arms are great against heavy armored units: many of them has armor piercing ability. So are axes.

Swords are Spears are not as good against heavy armors.

Annie

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ April 21 2003,07:19)]Pole-arms are great against heavy armored units: many of them has armor piercing ability.
Indeed,and all polearm units have a good defence.

[Aelwyn]

Also, are you charging your spearmen into the AUM? Instead use them on hold formation/position and they will be able to hold the AUM off for a little longer while your flanking units do their work. If the AI is bunching all of its units together then it is a bit harder because the units in the back not actually fighting but just pushing forward to fight, disengage what they're doing and fight your units behind the pile....at least a good deal of the time. In this situation a cav charge in the back would work well. Pin them down with swords/axes on the flanks, and charge cav into their backs. If this doesn't work....somethings going awry, and your general is probably a bit inbred http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[NewJeffCT]

I always have good success against anybody by hitting them with flank attacks. I'm guessing, as others have stated, that the Almos you are fighting have good valour, a good general, or else your troops are not so good, or low in valour, or have a general with some strong vices.

BTW, I love feudal sargants, even more than chiv. sargents due to their speed.

[some_totalwar_dude]

there speed is the same isnt it?
or are you talking about turning speed?

[lonewolf371]

Ok I need to clarify some things...
Pole-arm=spear/pike
Missiles=AP arrow, bolt, cannon ball http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kongamato]

Spears and Pikes fall into the Spear category.

Polearm units are 60/40-man units w/halberds and poleaxes. They recieve the armor-piercing bonus.

a list:

(Units in red receive +3 attack and +1 Defense vs. Cavalry)


Billmen
Chivalric Foot Knights
Halberdiers
Janissary Heavy Infantry
Militia Sergeants
Swiss Halberdiers
Urban Militia
[/list]

[Papewaio]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ April 20 2003,02:31)]Sorry, but Feudal Sergeants are crap ... Even spearman are better, much more better ...
As noted Feudals have better morale and armour. All they need to do is sit there, die slowly and not run away. They do not need to kill the enemy just give the oppourtunity to others to flank, envelop and destroy the enemy.

[A.Saturnus]

Envelope works well for me. I had VGs routed once by mounted sgts charging them in the rear.

[MizuKokami]

it has to be a valor and v&v thing. haven't you seen thoughout history where valor has won the day against superior tactics, superior firepower, and superior numbers?
wait, am i typeing this in the correct topic?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[lonewolf371]

No, spears fall into the general pole-arm category. I could say all the weapons you named fell into the halberd category if we were both using the same concept. A pole-arm is a weapon fashioned from a basic pole.

BTW-Strategies always win, just look at the battle of Agincourt. The French had tons of "valour" yet they lost horribly.

[Papewaio]

I always thought that a polearm was primarily a slashing/hacking/cleaving type of weapon on a long stick, while a spear was just a dagger on the end of a long stick.

[Kongamato]

In the manual on page 67 the unit type description of Heavy Infantry says that "when equipped with polearms, they can also reduce cavalry units to so much dog food." IMO This sets polearm units apart from the unit type Spearmen, which includes spearmen and pikemen.

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (lonewolf371 @ April 22 2003,22:21)]BTW-Strategies always win, just look at the battle of Agincourt. The French had tons of "valour" yet they lost horribly.
In MTW,no.
This game simply relies almost entierly on lots of annoying individual unit micromanagement wich was,in reality,NOT the interest of the general,and it relies in the "hold 'em with spears and flank 'em with cav" tactic.

[Rowan11088]

I completely disagree. Number one, micro management and stuff is at least not as important as valor; in single player especially, valor is everything. i had a valor 12 royal knight that cut through hordes of swordmen and mongolian infantry without every being killed; didn't really require much "strategy" and obviously no micro-management...it was one unit after all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

But also, the "hold em with spears flank em with cav" tactic certainly doesn't dominate this game. If you've played enough single and multi-player especially, you'd know that. Number one, swordmen and halberdier types don't fit into that mold at all, yet are incredibly important in deciding battles. Also, artillery plays a large part, as in real-life battles. Finally, strategy does play quite a large role. If you're smart about it, you can rout high valor Varangina Guards through clever use of moral-altering, such as firing on them with missiles and artillery while skirmishing with them to make them fatigued, and finally hitting from the flank with some cavalry or high attack units.

[sbreden]

Against the Almos, I have had huge success with Spanish Jinettes. Harass their flanks with javelins for a bit, then give your self some distance and charge. The Almos hate that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The_Emperor]

I love using cavalry to flank the enemy... sending a squad of Royal Knights/Chivalric Knights hard into the rear of the enemy, often its enough to make them run a mile

I try to rout as many units of the enemy as I can with tactics like that, because the enemy do suffer more of a morale penalty when they see their own guys routing.

A massive army is useless if they are all running scared