View Full Version : Mongol invasion review thread
I thought it would be good if the all the impending torrent of people with the Mongol invasion who wish to air their thoughts on the game, did it in one convenient thread. I know this is presumptious and it may end up as a dead thread, but this is a kind of prompt to those with the game to reveal all about the game, so stick your review for all us Europeans here!.
celtiberoijontychi
08-08-2001, 22:13
Hi
Please paste your reviews in the corresponding thread at the official forum, too.
Thanx
Lord Aeon
08-09-2001, 04:45
Picked it up this afternoon. Many of you won't like most of what i'm going to say, but, without further ado:
THE GOOD:
The new conditions for victory lend a bit to the game, if only that you can have then game end when it is virtually over rather than technically so. In other words, you don't have to sit through that last hour of the game.
I have to say that the AI seems a bit more intelligent; on more than one occasion the CPU attempted a rather clever bait-n-attack manouever, among other things. The alliances have more impact on the game (something i was sincerely hoping would be included), but not really enough to make it any different than the original game since, still, the CPU often attacks when it sees a weak spot regardless of alliances.
Another plus is the fact that you pillage koku when you take over a new territory, although to be honest i would have gladly traded that bit for the ability to choose whether or not to destroy some key buildings.
Complete digression: If you buy the WE in the next few days you can send in for a $10 rebate.
Anyway, for the most part, the new units seem to be useful, which was another surprise... the kensai is actually particularly devastating (maybe too much so), and battlefield ninja are concealed unless they are moving or attacking. They can attack at range as well, adding a fair amount to their potential to rout the opponent. Haven't yet messed with the mongol units, though.
THE BAD:
Nothing has really changed graphically, other than a few terrain impovements.
And there are sure to be some balance issues with the new units... i won't go into which and why just yet (i'll save that for the full review)...
One of the new buildings, the drill dojo, is virtually useless. All it does is extend you a bonus for rallying your troops... which makes little sense because if your troops are routing, you're probably gonna lose anyway. The manual says that the drill dojo lends to attack capabilities, but i have yet to see it because you can't set or control the "discipline" of troops in a custom battle... which suggests that 'honor' is still the number one factor in determining the effectiveness of troops in battle.
Najinata Cavalry seem to be pretty much useless as well... the only advantage they really enjoy is that they are 50 koku cheaper than the other cavalry units. They have weaker armor and are more offensive oriented, but they die more quickly, which leads to less of an offensive advantage... you get the picture.
Also, obtaining the kensai or battlefield ninja depends mostly upon picking up the "Legendary Swordsman" event, which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't completely random. LOL
THE UGLY:
Reports of shinobi that can bribe enemy armies into defecting are greatly exaggerated (i don't remember where i read this). The primary uses of shinobi are still spying and the manipulation of population loyalty.
Overall, the expansion gives me the feeling that very little was actually done with this game, which is ok because it didn't need much improvement anyway. But i suspect that most of the time between today and the release of the original many months ago was spent planning and producing the next Total War game. The editors are a nice feature, to be sure, but i don't know that the expansion lends any lasting freshness to the game, so to speak.
Oh well. with that said, i'm off to play more of it, and to see if i can get rid of those pesky Mongols. More later, if anyone is interested.
Peace.
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
NinjaKilla
08-09-2001, 04:58
Cheers for that, Lord Aeon! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Ah well. You can't please everyone.
Oh, and it's the emissaries who bribe armies, not shinobi. Just drop them onto armies that you want to turn and chuck loads of money at them.
Hey Target! Its cool that the developers are dropping by to see what people think.
Oh yeah, cheers Aeoen, keep us posted with your findings, I am looking forward to your full review.
Lord Aeon
08-09-2001, 05:43
Don't let me give you the impression that it's all bad. It's still the best strategy game i've ever played... if it had been enhanced only a little, it only secures that title.
I didn't know that it was emissaries that could bribe armies... lemme take another look at that...
Also, i haven't spent any time playing the Mongol campaign, which i am about to start... right.... now.
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-08-2001).]
Magyar Khan
08-09-2001, 06:39
he target,
dont be suprised that people here try to explain some things like the delay for months (without real explanation). teh ea marketeers think the buyers are stupid. sadly for them we are not. even without the game in my hands i am sure the whole mess about the release date is pure strategy to earn money and not to satisfy an handfull people on this forum.
btw guys is the stupid autorout bug solved?
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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-shogun/shogun-images/armystamp.jpg Quote All land from sunrise to sunset is given to us.[/QUOTE] www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl) www.totalwar.club.tip.nl (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl) www.campaign.club.tip.nl (http://www.campaign.club.tip.nl)
TakeshidaSo
08-09-2001, 06:50
I have to admit that I have been waiting for someone to ask and answer that question. Theres little point in trying to expand if you fail to consolidate your base of operations.
Nice review Lord Aeon, thanks! Make sure you let us know how the campaign is as soon as you can, but if we don't hear from you for a while I guess that is a good thing, because it means you are playing + probably happy.
Lord Aeon
08-09-2001, 07:05
Quick update for all that are interested:
As far as i can tell, the autorout bug has been eliminated, although i haven't REALLY tried to duplicate it multiple times.
And the bribing w/emissaries does add a whole new dimension to the game. Frankly, besides improved alliance situations, this was the single most attractive feature of the expansion for me. And yes, it delivers on this. I was able to take all of the western provinces as Shimazu without raising a spear.
But it ain't easy, and it's expensive. There were some situations where i had to carefully consider risk vs. reward, because if the bribe fails, you lose your emissary. Furthermore, the bribe you offer isn't necessarily the bribe you have to pay. If you don't have enough koku, you can still go ahead with the bribe and simply offer what money it is you have. At times,your emissary will attempt the bribe, then realize that the army he's appraising isn't worth what you're offering, and negotiate the price to a lower amount.
You cannot bribe heirs or daimyo (of course), and you must remember that YOUR armies may be bribed as well. However, it seems as though the general's rank, or the diamyo's rank, or the emissary's honor, or overall population loyalty, or proximity to the daimyo, or, of course, the size/type of the army in question affect the amount of the bribe. That is, any combination of any number of those factors or all of the above will affect the bribe amount. I would love for a dev to enlighten us as to which factors affect the bribe amount. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
This is what i was praying for, folks... more diplomacy and overall conniving to better your position. Time to crack open the ol' Art of War volume...
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
A quickie for y'all...
The 'book' says that to make Kensai you need a legendary (or famous?) sword dojo and a citadel. And BNinjas require an infamous ninja house and a citadel.
Get ready to show them the koku!
Dark Phoenix
08-09-2001, 10:24
Well looks like I will have to build my first citadel for the first time ever.
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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)
I am no hero I just like to hit people in the head. :p
Thanks for the news guys http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Cheers
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PSYCHO HOJO / PSYCHO SO
Gregoshi
08-09-2001, 12:21
Keep in mind that this is just "first impressions". It will be weeks/months yet before we can really get a good handle on what WE/MI is and isn't. If you remember when Shogun first came out there was a wide range of (mis)understanding of how the game worked. It took time to sort it all out.
Just keep the input coming. This will stir up discussion on strategies, tactics and the new units/buildings.
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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon
redfirestone
08-09-2001, 13:25
my two cents,
*** First, all bulidings cost half as much koku and take half the time to build. This is quite interesting. I guess it is better now. It speeds up the game quite a bit. units cost the same amount of kuko
*** you can fill up your units to the maxmium without having to match the right amount. ex your have 40 man and another with 40. you can create 60 and 20.
*** When I play takeda, generals come out a year earlier than before. Amari Torayasu comes out at spring of 1534 not 1535. I think it is all the same with other clans.
*** the AI IMO is the same, maybe a tag smarter.
*** the kensai is not as deadly as some have say. It is quite tough to kill, but it is still only one man and cost 600. i doubt it can wimp out a whole unit of no-dochi.
*** the mongol units does not seem to rout as much as the japs.
*** the light cavalry is very fast and fires very quick. pretty tough for the japs to handle, I think.
*** the heavy cavalry is also fast and deadly
*** the bombers could be very deadly to slow moving units if it get close.
*** there are three or four campaigns (not the full campaign) the mongol one is the best. simply i get to play the new units.
*** the mongol units seems quite fun.
At the end, the expension is ok but not as good as it could be. I think I will get tried of it soon. maybe it is because i played so much on the orginal. The price should be $19.99 instead of $39.99. Since they didn't change much, I am wondering why is it delayed so long???
Dark Phoenix
08-09-2001, 15:38
Have you tried the Kensai online as Target said that it was a more unbalanced there?
Swoosh So
08-09-2001, 17:41
also how much larger are the big maps does it add alot to the games?
Swoosh;
I think that T_D has one of the new style maps available for download at www.planettotalwar.com (http://www.planettotalwar.com) (see mainpage news item).
Swoosh So
08-09-2001, 18:54
ye unfortunately i dont have exp so cant see it lol
swooooooooooooooooooosh
Lord Aeon
08-09-2001, 21:22
Here's some other things that you may or may not already know from previews (or maybe they were in the original game as well):
1. Alliances give you trade income.
2. You can make a quick assessment of population loyalty on the strategic map by pressing SHIFT... revolting populations are red, wavering populations are yellow, and loyal populations are green.
3. When you take territories, buildings seem a bit less prone to go down.
4. Mongols can only construct border towers and border forts.
5. I believe that you can retrain units to update their effectiveness, although i still have no idea how.
6. You can switch build/train orders by dragging the icons forward or back in the list.
7. If you have alliances with 2 clans at war, you have to cancel your alliance with one of them, and the same goes for the other clans... i actually got help from Takeda in taking a Mori territory... they sent in troops to help with the assault, and immediately pulled them out and let me own the territory. It seems that alliances are a useful thing.
8. Breaking alliances will decrease your daimyo's honor.
9. When an archer unit is out of ammo or can't fire due to wet weather, the sword icon comes up and you don't have to press alt... also, at that time they are able to attack (hand-to-hand) at will.
10. Protect your emissaries... theyhave actually become a very important startegic unit.
11. LOL, in case it hasn't already been stated, Mongol Light Cavalry are *extremely* fast and deadly. They are a serious pain if you're playing as Japanese.
12. You can, of course, disband armies and dismantle buildings, which helps tremendously in getting that extra koku for that bribe. (I don't yet know if it is more beneficial to disband or retrain armies).
13. You can drop your strategic units anywhere on the map, and he/she will move there by the shortest route posssible over a series of turns.
The thing is, many of the improvements aren't obvious... i played the game before i actually read the manual...
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
Ii Naomasa
08-09-2001, 21:49
I didn't have much luck with The Warlord Edition last night. Blue screens of digital seppuku and other errors made it near impossible to get very far. Oh well. It's going to be a long weekend and I've been meaning to start clean on my PC anyway (doing a scowering for any and all updated drivers I can get my hands on today). It did install fine on my mediocre work PC, though, although I didn't do much more than verify its functionality.
Some small observations from as far as I could get (which is basically the menus):
I don't know how I feel about the RAN video intro. For those who have seen the movie, it's the scenes where the two older brothers attack their father in the castle, wiping out all the loyal retainers. It's odd to see the pale, gaunt father sitting there in the burning room all confused and relate to how one is supposed to feel while playing... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The version number for the Warlord edition is V 1.00. This is a slight concern for me, as one would think it would be V 1.13 to put it at the level of the supposedly upcoming patch. This makes me wonder if the rumors that a compatibility patch not coming out may be true. An observation only...I don't know what to make of it. They could be working under two different version systems (i.e. Shogun 1.13 = SWE 1.00), but one would think that may get confusing down the road.
There are a lot of options for play. I wandered through the menus for at least five minutes before deciding that I wanted to give a run as the Mongols (might as well try out the meat of the new stuff, right?). Didn't get to play it (except for one battle early this morning at work), but I do like the various victory conditions and starting periods.
The one battle I played was short. The AI still seems to be able to read your moves, as I could've attacked three provinces, but he moved nearly all his available troops (including using ports, which is a good thing) to the one province I decided to attack. Didn't really make much of a difference, as I joyfully used my light cavalry to harass and severely weaken the poor ashigaru crossbowmen that stood in our way, making them crumble before my spearmen. The ones with any wits left over took to the hills. I can see the campaign bogging down though as the computer digs in a bit, so it should be fun.
Will post thoughts on the actual game once I get it functional on my home machine.
Zen Blade
08-09-2001, 21:49
don't have the game yet...
but,
what about....
1. port bug???
2. picking the troops to use when more than 16 units...
3. geisha repellent?
4. koku cheat for computer?
5. computer making same attacks constantly...
-hoping to get mine soon.
-Zen Blade
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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member
And are the x-bow men crap as in some of the reviews??????
Hach
P.S is there a build chart like the first game and if so can someone post it?
Ii Naomasa
08-10-2001, 02:22
Zen Blade-san, unfortunately, I can't answer any of those yet, as I'm currently busy at work (working, of all things! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ) and last night I didn't even get to see the campaign intro movies (and today, I merely mopped up a sad group of AshiXBowmen before needing to dig into what pays for my silly game purchases http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ).
hach-san, my one battle didn't give me a clear impression of the guys (to be 100% honest I'm one of those with a slight grudge against them for their inaccuracy to begin with). My retinue of Mongol Light Cavalary and Korean spearmen did a ridiculous number on them, though. My cavalry softened them up with very few casualties of their own (you would think you'd be able to hit horses just standing around) and my spearmen rolled over them (they were on the last strands of their courage at that point, so it really wasn't a fair fight). The XBow men seemed to have about the same range as my L.Cav (both the firing and being fired upon icons came up at the same time, and I was creeping up to them to see what our range was like). It could've all been a fluke, for all I know.
As for a chart, U.S. fans will be happy to note that the Warlord Edition's American version not only comes with a build chart (with keyboard shortcuts on the back), but the manual is actually a decent manual! If we didn't already know how to play the game, it would actually do a good job teaching you.
The build chart isn't really all that different from the old Shogun one, though. The Mongol units don't have pre-requisites and the few Japanese ones pop up with required legendary dojo of their type, with perhaps a sword dojo and the like (except the Battlefield ninja, which need the new Battlefield ninja dojo, which, if I recall, can be built after an upgrade or two to their normal creation building).
Hope this helps (can't wait to get home, give the machine a scrubbing, and get it going).
Doconicus
08-10-2001, 02:31
I think two of the greatest features of the add-on is the "training facility". This building allows you to upgrade and replenish units. This is handy when experienced units were decimated and need refitting. The other is the fact that stacking units finally works as god had intended. A unit of 83 men stacked with a unit of 97 men of the same type will give you two units, one of the max unit size and the other of the leftovers. Bravo.
Doc
All this talk is making me jelous! Been keeping track of my ex-pac thru EA and UPS. Question, is there an easier way to pick a general for a green army? Can you just click on a unit to decide if that one leads? Perhaps fix that problem of an heir coming of age into an ashigaru unit?
Anssi Hakkinen
08-10-2001, 04:09
So far, everything is sounding extremely good. I kind of anticipated NC's mortality problem, but infantry is more fun anyway. And having Kensai locked behind a Legendary Swordsman event *and* a Citadel makes their rarity just one step down from an unique event, which pleases me greatly.
And in case the developers wonder if they've succeeded in hyping the game to maximum effect while still retaining some element of surprise: they have. I haven't looked forward to the release this much since May! Interesting times, oh boy, interesting times... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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"The Way of the samurai is imperative and absolute. Practice, in the body, through the unconscious, is fundamental to it, thus the enormous importance attached to the learning of right action or behavior."
Zen Blade,
It looks like the port bug is fixed. As Takeda, I could not move from Aki to Totomi which has a port but is controlled by Imagawa.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
borisus16
08-10-2001, 13:24
Do the routing man still have the charge bonus? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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An army is like a mans body,take off the head and the body will fall.
Lord Aeon
08-10-2001, 22:08
Not sure about the rout bonus, because i usually pursue with cavalry, but it seems that you get a bonus when pursuing the enemy. I have not yet lost a man to routing enemies. In fact, your status window for units that are chasing routing units off the map says "pursuing".
You can still invade any territory that has a port. You need to have a strategic unit in that territory first (i have only tried with shinobi), but you can still send troops to invade that province the turn after he/she is in place.
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-10-2001).]
I'm not sure, the rout bug was supposed to be fixed with 1.12 and I patched as soon as I got the game so never experienced it in its full "glory". That being said, I have gotten very careful not to let yari infantry overrun my cav in a pursuit situation and only pursue them from the rear. I just end up taking losses from them even in pursuit. Of course, nothing like I take in a fight when they are slamming into me....
Dark Phoenix
08-10-2001, 22:18
Actually the rout bug is not fixed in patch v1.12 as the guys didnt find it until a couple of months a go which is a long time after that patch.
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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)
I am no hero I just like to hit people in the head. :p
borisus16
08-10-2001, 22:45
Lord Aeon-
can you please test it in a costum battle,i really want to know.
YA and WM VS YA,just put your ashi at the back of the enemy ashi and rout them with the monks.
i hate this bug,troops stronger when thay run away... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
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An army is like a mans body,take off the head and the body will fall.
posted on another thread as well:
Got my copy yesterday and make the following observations:
1. I am completely satisfied so far that its worth buying. However, no multi-player campaign is dissappointing.
2. Set up a custom 5k Sam vs. Sam game on 4th K map. (it's got shrubs on it which seem to have some effect on play.) I picked a normal army with the addition of a Kensai (upgraded his att/def by +1) and attacked. The random def picked two Kensai. As the armies closed, the def sent out a Kensai. I countered with mine and a big duel ensued. It seemed as though both armies stopped to watch! After a long fight, my guy won (must have been the upgrades) and went after the other Kensai who he killed quickly. He then charged the enemy Taisho's SA unit and sliced it to ribbons. The AI tried to bring guns to bear on him, so I sent in my NC. I won the game easily.
For fun, I set up a 1K game buying on and upgraded Kensai. First time, with no rain, AI guns shot hime down right off. Second time, in the rain, he chased all three units around the map, slaughtering at will. However, the guns began firing even in the rain and got him after losing about 50 guys.
Next, tried to set up one of the new battle modes, only to find out that these are only available in MP! This is a serious oversight (maybe too much trouble to program the AI for these?) How can we practice these new modes off line? I see lots more friendly games on the horizon.
3. Started a few historical campaign screnarios for fun. The Mongals are very tough indeed and the victory comdiditons a varied. Maybe this is how to try the other modes in SP?
The larger maps make the battles go much longer, in part because it takes longer for the fleeing troops to get off the field, and partly because it takes much longer to seep the map looking for hidden units. (Lost one easy battle because the timer ran out while I was still sweeping the woods.)
Camera shifts are much more abrupt on the large maps as well, but the sprites really look much better with my TNT card. Troops seem to be slowed more when passing through each other. Out of ammo missile troops automatically switch to melee mode. All generals show up on radar as white dots, making it much easier (too easy?) to locate the enemy Taisho.
4. SP campaign improvements a numerous and all great! Didn't fool with the Mongals, but tried starting all the Sengoku era games as Takeda. The first era is the same as before. In the second, Mori is gone and most others have lost ground. One province clans abound in the third period which sees the beginings of missionaries. But the fourth period (1580) is radically different. Takeda (with three provinves) starts almost fully upgraded and ready to build citidels. Kai has a 1200 koku income. There are guns, NC, HC, etc. with heavy upgrades galore.
However, the Takeda are stuck with Katsuyori (H3) for their Daimyo, but are surrounded by the giants: Nobunaga (6), Tokugawa (H6 or 7) and an H7 (?) Usuegi daimyo. In the third period (1550) the Takeda get Shingen, so period choice can make a big difference in a clan's viability.
Construction times and costs have been cut in half, but income has not. It now makes sense to build that mine complex and upgrade those fields.
Rebellions seem to happen more readily. The fact that emissaries can bribe, makes them more likely to be ninja bait, although the suggested bribes have all been way beyond the amount of koku in the bank, so haven't tried that yet. Tried to break a siege with an H2 ninja, but he died.
Playing on the assumption that diplomacy matters now (haven't put it to the test) makes it a whole new game as well. I allied with Tokugawa, then Oda, but when they went to war, had to chose between them. Rejected a Hojo alliance because I intended to invade Musashi and didn't want to lose honor. In fact, I found myself spending more time urgently buying strategic troops (ninja et al) than super-dooper Takeda cav.
The "port bug" is now official, Guard your coastline. Don't know yet if the AI will do sea invasions.
5. The audio is quite different with lots more sounds and tunes which run longer but maybe not as good as some of the orginal music. The Mongal voice acting is a bit silly -- I going back to Japanese language setting. Did a medium install and only seem to be missing the throne room which is no big loss compared to the 800+ megs saved. Otherwise the game seems stable, looks better and runs faster than before. However, registration sucks, but will have to be mastered so you can play the new battle modes.
See you online,
Yoritomo
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