Target, why o why are Japanese HC so POOR?

[DoCToR]

They seem to be the unit with no real purpose...?!

With the introduction of the Mongols this puzzling unit seems to be even more troublesome and somewhat useless!?

In STW YC far out-do the HC in their usefulness and in the MI add-on pack the MHC seem to be what the JHC should have been?

iF you feel i am wrong please give me an example of when they would ever be useful in a situation which another unit couldn't already do just as well. You may say archer/gun, no-dachi mashers? However, YC also do this and have other uses, and so are always picked in preference! Even YC mash HC!!!

Now the Mongol HC seem to be better in every way and cost exactly the same?!

Puzzled?!

DOC

[Anssi Hakkinen]

HC take less casualties when "mashing" ND than YC. Comparing the Japanese HC to the MHC isn't really viable, because Mongols are Mongols, and don't really need to be exactly balanced with the Japanese (that is, concerning individual units, but they should of course be balanced overall).

I would like it if any of you happy WE owners ran tests on HC vs. WMs with their new lowered defence rating. The original theory was that the primary reason for the HC's existence was to kill monks; this doesn't work in the original, but who knows, it just might in the expansion...

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"The Way of the samurai is imperative and absolute. Practice, in the body, through the unconscious, is fundamental to it, thus the enormous importance attached to the learning of right action or behavior."

[Puzz3D]

Anssi,

I just checked HC vs WM in custom battle (normal difficulty) on the green map with both the original Shogun and the Warlord Edition. HC charging AI controled WM who are counter charging. HC are fresh. Two runs with each game. Weather is fine day. Units are in "engage at will" mode.

Shogun:

HC wins taking 51 and loosing 44
HC wins taking 47 and loosing 25

Warlord:

HC wins taking 60 and loosing 33
HC lost taking 35 and loosing 60

HC doesn't appear to be doing better in the Warlord Edition. The units do fight longer because the morale is higher. The HC start with "impetuous" morale in Warlord Edition, but are only "steady" in Shogun.

Also, although the F1 screen doesn't show the correct attack value, it does seem to be showing the correct defense and armour values for the units. The defense value for an H0 Wm in Warlord Edition is shown as 2 which is the same value it has in the original Shogun. I don't think the defense value for the WM has been changed in Warlord.

IF the f1 screen is correct then I see the defense value for samurai archers has been reduced from 0 to -1, and the armour for yari samurai has been reduced from 3 to 2. Those are the only changes I see to the old units.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Taliyama ~~~

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Thanks, Puzz3D-san, now I'm just confused instead of ignorant and confused. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif

[Vanya]

Better question is: has anyone found a way to beat the Mongol cav yet? The japo cav wont even scratch their horses and all die in the process!

[HATAMOTOKILL]

Cant take all this,where's my game? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
4 to 7 days wait!life a bitch. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Hato!!!
Knight Owltwwooo!!!
http://hatamotokill.homestead.com/files/anim035.gif

[Puzz3D]

Anssi,

Sorry to confuse. There is high statistical fluctuation in these tests. I had run a bunch of tests on Totomi before going to the green map, but ended up discarding all the Totomi results because the ai likes to set up on the sides of hills. I could flank attack an ai controlled WM that was set up on the side of a small ridge with HC, and win every time. The WM wouldn't budge until HC made contact, but the HC are getting a nice flanking bonus at the beginning of the fighting. In any case, frontal or flank attack, the WM wouldn't leave the ridge when facing HC. I tried WM vs WM on totomi, and in that case the ai WM moved to another hill when I tried a flank approach. I forced an engagement with height advantage by coming up the other side of that hill. On green, the ai behaved differently and charged my HC when I got close to them (something like archer range or a little less). The length of time that these HC and WM fought is quite long because they hang in there to the last man or nearly the last man. This is a long way of saying, that by the time I got to the tests on green it was after midnight, and, so, only ran the four tests on green.

DoCToR,

Despite the fact that HC are mounted units and thus faster than infantry, they are defensive units. The key might be to think of them as fast naginata. Initially, their role can be protecting flanks or filling a hole in your line. I find that I don't want to get my YC tangled up with an enemy HC, so the mere presence of an enemy HC limits what the YC can do. Later in the battle they can possibly attack the enemy line from behind, and they could chase routing troops but will tire quickly if used for that. HC taisho would make sense because you usually don't use the taisho to fight until later on. With Mongol HC running around, then HC taisho is probably not a good idea.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Tachikaze]

If you don't see the advantage of HCs, perhaps you aren't fully realizing the advantages of speed in tactical combat. You should not rate units on a head-to-head basis. HCs have more value than Monks because they can reach a critical point in the battle quicker.

They are superior to YCs in combat. I use them to chase away YCs. I don't even have to engage them; my opponent backs off without a struggle.

In fact, they are a good deterent for almost all troops, except the two Yaris and maybe Monks (depending on the situation). They can really control an opponent's movements and tactics. Isn't that what you want?

Speed and deterence are two very important aspects of battle. HCs are useful for both.

[The Daimyo]

Well I've got all of the stats on the new units and the old ones w/ the changes here and I will publish them at my site later.
The way I have it organized will allow all of you to take in what everything's really worth now.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[HATAMOTOKILL]

Quote Originally posted by The Daimyo:
Well I've got all of the stats on the new units and the old ones w/ the changes here and I will publish them at my site later.
The way I have it organized will allow all of you to take in what everything's really worth now.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[/QUOTE]Great let us know when ready! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Interested to see how they shape up?



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Hato!!!
Knight Owltwwooo!!!
http://hatamotokill.homestead.com/files/owl_flap_md_wht.gif

[qwertyuiop]

Quote Originally posted by Tachikaze:
If you don't see the advantage of HCs, perhaps you aren't fully realizing the advantages of speed in tactical combat. You should not rate units on a head-to-head basis. HCs have more value than Monks because they can reach a critical point in the battle quicker.

They are superior to YCs in combat. I use them to chase away YCs. I don't even have to engage them; my opponent backs off without a struggle.

In fact, they are a good deterent for almost all troops, except the two Yaris and maybe Monks (depending on the situation). They can really control an opponent's movements and tactics. Isn't that what you want?

Speed and deterence are two very important aspects of battle. HCs are useful for both.[/QUOTE]

Excellent reasoning, case closed http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[DoCToR]

i disagree, YC quite often mash HC!!

and if i see YC i tend to avoid them with my HC...

plus they are slower than both YC and CA...if ya need speed and charge bonuses then use YC, whilst CA give ya a ranged option...

so yet again, whats the advantage???

[Tachikaze]

Well, I agree that if you kamikaze your YCs into HCs, you will pretty much eliminate the HC unit from true effectiveness in battle. However, even though I have seen YCs beat HCs on occasion, HCs usually come out on top. My point was not that HCs are more powerful, but that they can influence your opponent's moves. Deterence is not necessarily what your unit can do, but what it forces your opponent to do.

Of course, if someone thinks as you do, HCs would not be so feared, and the deterence loses its effect. But most of my opponents respect HCs.

As far as speed, they are fast enough so that they can intercept YCs in situations when YSs and NDs can't. You don't have to race them, just get to them before they do damage, or make your opponent think you can get to them before they do damage.

Truly, I've had games where HCs died like flies (mostly when they get hemmed in and surrounded because of my idiocy). But I've had other games where they go all over the battlefield, flanking and rushing and screaming Japanese stuff. By the end of the game, they have been in almost every major engagement, racked up a big score, and I can't believe how many are still alive. I think: "is this the only HC unit I had?"

Forget the stats and head-to-head tests; just judge the worth of units based on their performance in battle. If they don't work for you, then they aren't worth 600 koku.

[The Daimyo]

OK everyone, the Unit Specs are up at my site. I'm not done with the Warlords section so don't bother poking around, there's nothing of interest on there yet other than these specs.

There's 2 different pages, 1 is for browsing on the web and the other is for printing out.
I'll add a print button later. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Head on over to my site by clicking here: http://www.planettotalwar.com


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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[Jon]

Thanks Daimyo, I checked the unit stats, very comprehensive indeed! The Warlords gallery is looking cool as well, i can't wait for more pics, especially the strategy map, to reveal more battlefield events.

[The Daimyo]

Well, you won't be disappointed. I've got more numbers and in game events here to organize than I care to deal with.
Bah! You'll have your cake and you'll eat it too!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif


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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com