anyone got any good pics of cataphracts??? [Archive]

ZIM!

12-31-2002, 17:17

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif for the love of god I have searched all over the internet looking for pics of cataphracts I see im not the only one looking for an illustration of sorts of cataphracts..all I know is the pic in the game. I know they were heavaly armored Cavalry but I want to see what resembelence if any to roman cavalry there is.. but I have tried searching phrases in every possible combination to no avail.( except hand painted fantasy minitures which are crap)) I do however knowof books that illustrate military
garb of specific eras and nationalities there is a book on the armor of the Byzantine empire but u gotta buy the book D'oh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif if anybody finds anything let us know

Gregoshi

12-31-2002, 21:15

Hello and welcome to the Org kataphraktoi.

They didn't have cameras back then. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Rosacrux

12-31-2002, 22:35

I think I can help you, but you'll have to wait till monday, when I get back to work (when I can use a scanner to scan those images I got).

And if you search the web, you shall prolly find some miniatures of the kataphraktoi - they got their actual garment too: bows, swords, axes, skullcrushers, maces - not lances
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

kataphraktoi

01-01-2003, 14:39

Woohoo I'm not the only one whos looking for damn pictures of byzantine cataphracts.....at the moment I have only one picture of the cataphracts and thats from Angus McBrides depiction in the book byzantine armies 886 - 1116 or something like that.
I've got real life reconstructions but they freak me out with fat men in byzantine armour.
I appreciate the help being offered.
Those miniatures are annoying when I search the net, they are however interesting.

I've seen the Roman Cataphract and when you compare it to the byzantine cataphract you'll be amazed at the differences.
Apparently the Roman Cataphract was more heavily armoured than the byzantines - the Roman cataphract was dressed literally from head to toe in mail and scale.
The head was protected by a helmet with a mask in front of it.
The body was first dressed in mail then covered with scale armour, the arms and the legs were covered with overlapping plates of metal till it covered the whole length.
Truly a heavily armoured soldier.
The horse was covered fully as well, mroe so than the Byzantine cataphract.

kataphraktoi

01-01-2003, 14:56

In the Senior Forums someone suggested that Cataphracts should have extremely heavily armoured instead of very heavily armoured. I think this should be the case since the Cataphracts are slow yet shared the same very heavily armoured status with other Catholic knights who are much evidently faster than the Cats. If I had my way I'd exchanged a lance for a mace in a cataphract's hand, I wouldn't mind it if they used a compund bow as a secondary weapon like they did in real life - they would be the clibanorophori - eastern style cataphracts.

Surak-nar

01-01-2003, 22:36

No Pics yet, however some Information on Kataphract Cavalry.

Quote[/b] ]Cataphracts

The word is derived from the Greek cataphractoi, meaning covered over. This form of shock cavalry, in which horse and rider both wore scale armor that covered most of their bodies, originated in the Near East, and was also known and used by the steppe nomads. The Parthians, in particular, used cataphracts to defend their empire from the ravages of other nomads and in their struggles against the Roman Empire. Ahasuerus, being from Parthia, would have been quite familiar with cataphracts, and it seemed likely that he would have a heavy cavalry unit in his own warband. Ammianus Marcellinus describes the Halani (Alans) using such heavy cavalry in the 4th century against the Romans at Adrianople. The Romans soon developed their own armored cavalry after finding out firsthand while fighting the Parthians and Alans how effective it could be.

Interesting Historical of the Alan, I found it too, since in MTW hey are but Mercenary very Light cavalry.

I_Love_Sherri

01-02-2003, 02:44

go here for picture:) www.gamespot.com/features/aoe2_byz/page4.html

kataphraktoi

01-02-2003, 12:57

Quote[/b] ]the Halani (Alans) using such heavy cavalry in the 4th century against the Romans at Adrianople.

Yeah an interesting fact, maybe it they were influenced by geography and periphery to Parthia who were well known for their Cataphracts. Then again perhaps the MTW version of the Alans reflected one part of the Alan military tradition????

Quote[/b] ]go here for picture:) www.gamespot.com/features/aoe2_byz/page4.html

I seen it before, i actually like that beta AOE2version of the cataphract to the one they actually used in the end. I still got a copy of the aoe2 beta somewhere in my room.

kataphraktoi

01-02-2003, 13:02

http://www.angelfire.com/games/vinceshomepage/VincesImages/Byz/ByzSHC1.gif

here's a clibanophori - a cataphract who uses bow and arrow as well.

ZIM!

01-02-2003, 16:03

hmmm, im not sure thats an accurate depiction of a cataphract? it justdoesnt look heavily armored enough I hope Rosacrux comes through for us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

kataphraktoi

01-02-2003, 17:08

Quote[/b] ]hmmm, im not sure thats an accurate depiction of a cataphract? it justdoesnt look heavily armored enough I hope Rosacrux comes through for us

yah me too, me wanna see some mobile heavy metal.

Dem Cataphracts are better lookin than royal knights in me opinion simply cos they're byzantine, combining both western and eastern influences into a missile/shick action trooper. Good good goody.

ZIM!

01-02-2003, 17:25

I found this.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/strategikon/f-warr.gif

but that doesnt look accurate either?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

I_Love_Sherri

01-02-2003, 22:35

THE FACT THAT YOUR MEN SHOWS. YOU NEED TO SCROLL DOWN THE LINK I GAVE YOU AND NOT JUST LOOK AT THE FIRST PIC. THERE IS A VERY HEAVILY ARMOURED CAT THERE.

ZIM!

01-02-2003, 22:47

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif mmmmmm,no I saw that one too it looks better but still was hoping for one more accurate a catapract was a heavy combination of mail and scale armor this guy seems like hes mostly plate looks like they might have changed it to meet the ideal of medieval armor

ZIM!

01-03-2003, 00:01

and this:

http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/PLATE11AX.HTML

rasoforos

01-03-2003, 00:13

guys you d better say a nice word cause it took me ages to find this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . it is from an online club a friend has and its has some really cool pictures :
this is the club URL but its in greek so you wont understand much :

http://clubs.pathfinder.gr/galaxy/

the url you should see is :

http://clubs.pathfinder.gr/galaxy/73948?album=36039

the 3rd and 4th photo are depicting cataphracts , thre 3rd other units as well.Special thanx to the creator of the club nicnamed cataphractos .

hope this helps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

kataphraktoi

01-03-2003, 12:22

I've seen the gamespot pics on the Cataphracts but they are largely synthetic rather than based on a real cataphract, they look more like western knights but I still like em for what they're worth.

Rasoforos you are a SAINT
I dubbed thee an honorary Kataphraktoi

These pics are great.really really great.

kataphraktoi

01-03-2003, 12:42

http://www.angelfire.com/games/vinceshomepage/VincesImages/Byz/ByzSHC1.gif

Similarities anyone with the picture above and that of the picture with the link provided by rasoforos ?

This is only one kind of cataphract, there are many different kinds of cataphract in the byzantine army but as far as I'm concerned they are wear the following:

Lamellar(not scale armour) under a padding (kabadion) or over 2-3 layers of mail worn underneath.

Vambraces or plate greaves for arms and legs with padding underneath sometimes of mail.

Armed with Bow, Lance, Mace, Sword(Spatharion) or a curved sword (Paramerion), Axe as well.

Heavily armoured and armed, did I miss something? Otherwise the Kataphraktoi was one kick ass unit, I wish the MTW included a mace somewhere(Mace causes fear bonus hehehe)

Lamellar was a uniquely byzantine adaptation of eastern styles, lamellar is an eastern invention, plate armour too was eastern in style and antiquity. Byzantine cataphracts used lamellar over mail just as later knights used plate over mail, lamellar was flexible but just as hard and protective as plate was for the western knights. Don't forget Cataphracts wore 2-3 layers of mail underneath the lamellar with overlapping armour covering some areas.
Extremely heavily armoured. A walking Oven. Fry an egg on the horse's armour - takeaway fried food.

barocca

01-03-2003, 12:42

Quote[/b] ]
The Byzantine army went into decline partially because it lost the plains of Anatolia, from which it had drawn both horses and cavalrymen for service

this all sounds like a Byzantine mod in the making to me...

Create a new unit pic,
Increase the armour,
and kataphraktoi trained in Anatolia get a +1 bonus...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

anyone game to make it?

kataphraktoi

01-03-2003, 12:51

Hmm Barocca an interesting point indeed,

I know nothing about mods so I won't attempt it but unit pic??? well that is something I could be interested in.

Any chance of making the cataphract extremely heavily armoured????????????????????????????????????????????

rasoforos

01-03-2003, 14:36

kataphraktoi thanx i am honoured to be an honorary kataphraktos ( singular for kataphraktoi) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif. And as you said the Kataphracts changed through history , the images actually show than since there is i think 3 centuries of difference between the two models and some differences in armor can be seen.

and as it was said there is no place for images of kataphractoi to be found on the net. i talked to the friend that gave me the link and he told me that he faced the same problem trying to find a kataphraktos on the net so he had to scan some pictures. such a same for this really cool unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

fenir

01-03-2003, 14:58

We actually have very few Images of Kataphraktoi.

But we do know what they wore, and how they where armed, to some extent.
None of the images so far have been a Kataphraktoi of the game period however. And the only ones I have are in a very expensive book, and it is in transit to Aussie. Not to mention, no one will be bending it's pages to scan.

To give you the best idea,

They wore between 4 to 8 layers of Chain Mail Armour, later with Lamellar, and then included with some plate.
They used the Following weapons over the time of the game.
Lances.
Spears. (Heavy)
Maces.
Axes.
Heavy Bows.
Swords.

Note: in about the High middle ages, the Ktonos(lance) was actually strapped to the Horse. Not Held by the Rider in it's entirity.

The Klivanrioi became famous during this period, because the Romans considered it more effective to Charge and use the horse as an armoured battering ram while then being ready to melee. But that is Conjueture.

fenir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

ZIM!

01-03-2003, 16:56

thanks those pics rock thats wut I was talking about

ZIM!

01-03-2003, 17:01

by the way kataphraktoi I cant see yourpic its just an unlinked white box that says image hosted by angelfire? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

rasoforos

01-03-2003, 17:29

yep i got an unlinked white pic as well kataphraktoi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

khurjan

01-03-2003, 18:56

guys i can help but i got to ask the company i am doing reserach for if i can use my pics of cata on here to show you guys...this is cos even though the pics are mine i am part of team developing a strategy oriented game based on same time period and i had signed a NDA on materials i use if they okey it i will put up the pics by monday http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

rasoforos

01-03-2003, 19:07

that would be great khurjan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , hope you succeed

kataphraktoi

01-04-2003, 13:32

Do us proud Khurjan

(Toi) or (Tos) which one sounds better Rasoforos hehehe

Dem pics by Angus Mcbride were what i was lookin for.

Would u prefer a Mace over a lance?

Or would you like it if the Kataphraktoi charged with a lance then switched to a Mace for close quarter fighting automatically? (Smash dem Turkish skulls)

Kas

01-04-2003, 13:56

I converted those 2 pictures Rasoforos found to JPG, made them a bit smaller and put them on my server.

http://www.aggony.org/kat01.jpg
http://www.aggony.org/kat01.jpg

http://www.aggony.org/kat02.jpg
http://www.aggony.org/kat02.jpg

Kas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Kas

01-04-2003, 13:59

And found this...
http://www.anit.es/imagomundi/Wargames/gif/Klibanion2.jpg

Kas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

rasoforos

01-04-2003, 16:30

Kataphraktoi it would be great if they would change weapons , in fact they were doing quite often.that if i remember some historical novels i ve read correclty. i am breaking my head to remember the name of the byzantine paces now with no success. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

kaneyashi great job http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif at least there is some kata availbable on the net now

kataphraktoi

01-05-2003, 13:46

byzantine weapons (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/2398/bginfo/social/weapon.html)

if u wanna know more on byz weapons click this here.

Kraxis

01-05-2003, 18:47

Of the two good pictures we have I believe we can see a timedifference. The first picture is very similar to the Kats in the game, but their lack of armour on the lower arms and their ringmail has led me to believe they are of older times.

The second picture seems to present later kats, with plated armour in various places and lameller armour in general. Btw they look ugly and quite scary with those helmets and facemasks.