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ShaiHulud
11-10-2000, 18:25
I often tell my archers to hold position, in order to pin incoming troops for a counter-charge. What I'm seeing is that they only stay in place if I give orders to Hold Formation AND Hold Position. Anyone have any insights as to why that would be?
Logic would imply that Hold Position order would be sufficient...

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Kurando
11-10-2000, 18:38
I think what is happening there is that if you have a unit targeted and that unit moves out of range the archers will endeavour to follow the target to keep them in range.

The way to stop this is to click-off the "fire at will" button, and attack with the mouse only when the target is suficiantly in range. When the unit starts to retreat click-on the "hold fire" button, (before the unit gets out of range), and your archers should stay put.

It is also of note that archers turn in formation to collectively face a target when you initially command them to commence the attack.

Magraev
11-10-2000, 18:47
Hmm - is this the best strategy ? I would think, that archers always should skirmish (as long as they have arrows off course). I see the point of a great defensive position, but they'll still lose in melee combat won't they ?

longjohn2
11-10-2000, 19:18
The difference between "hold formation" and "hold position" is that the former applies to the individual soldiers, and the latter applies to the unit as a whole.

The "hold formation" melee mode only has an effect when a unit is in melee. It instructs the individual soldiers to hold their position within the formation, and not to rush in to fight the nearest enemy. Thus if an enemy unit attacks one end of your unit, all your soldiers won't rush towards that point. This order also instructs yari samurai and ashigaru to plant their spears, and so gain a defensive bonus ( sadly this is not represented graphically ).

Hold position on the other hand instructs the unit as a whole how to behave, but doesn't affect the behaviour of individual soldiers in melee. A unit that is ordered to hold position will not change its facing to shoot better, will not pursue routing enemy ( unless its morale reaches impetuous ) and if it is forced out of position ( by skirmishing or during a melee) will seek to return to it.

Also a quick point about fire at will. Units that are firing at will, never pursue enemy that move out of range. However, if you explicitly order a unit to shoot at an enemy, then the unit will move to keep the enemy in range. This is mainly to allow you to issue orders to shoot at enemy that are currently out of range, and have your unit automatically advance until it can shoot.

Yabusama
11-10-2000, 20:08
This is my understanding of Hold Position, Engage at Will, Skirmish and Hold Formation, and allseem to work as I expect them to in my games;

Hold Formation (HF).
This tells the unit to basically hold their shape when in combat. Yari Samurai should always be put on HF when fighting cavalry. Imagine the unit drawn up in 3 ranks deep in HF and then engaging the enemy cav. You will see that they dont break up into individual fights, 1 YS against 1 cav, they stay as a block in their original 3 rank depp formation, thus presenting a wall of spears against the cav. So HF means just that, hold in what ever formation you are in when fighting. It basically allows the guys to survive a bit longer and gives them defensive bonuses.

Engage at Will (EaW)
This means when the unit enagages in hand to hand that the unit will break up into individual fghts of 1 or 2 versus 1 enemy. Best used for highly offensive units like Monks and No-Dachi, since these guys do a lot of damage. Putting weaker units on EaW will mean that they get their butts kicked.

Skirmish (S)
Available only to missile units this means that when an enemy unit advances within a certain range and is threatening you, retreat to a new position and then start firing again. This is why when you try and charge AI missile units they always seem to back of, and you can never catch them!. Works well, but I never use it for my missile troops. If I put my archers in a posiiton I want them to stay put and keep firing at the enemy, not waltz across the field avoiding the enemy and not firing at anyone. If I see an AI unit closing on my missile units, I send a combat unit to intercept. All my missile units are always on Hold Formation.

Hold Position (HP)
This does not affect the way the unit fights in battle. Any unit can be given this unit. All this means is the unit will not chase a routing enemy. Inagine the situation of a unit of YS defending against a cavalry attack. If the YS are not in HP and they beat the cav, they may start persuing the routed cav off across the map. Put them in HP and they will beat off the cav and then stay put. Saying this, sometimes units in HP will still follow a routing unit if their morale status is impetious or higher, but this is rare.

Hope this helps.

ShaiHulud
11-11-2000, 09:22
Thx, all, for your replies... Magraev, as I generally back my archers with Foot the purpose is to either halt an enemy attack til my Foot counter-charges or to insure that the archers will stay put and fight a lesser force I'd rather ignore with my main forces. As to the wisdom of it, it's probable that many do the same but I won't claim wisdom, just a thing I like to do. Sometimes necessary cuz I didn't counter-charge early enough to catch the enemy before they got there!
Yabu, Great reply that held the answer to my question! Many thx!

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Laertes
11-12-2000, 02:52
Magraev --

SA aren't actually too shabby in melee. YS would be preferable, but after all they ARE samurai, and won't break too quickly if they're in Hold Formation or Engage at Will.

This may be especially important in the beginning, when your armies are fairly small and you may need your SA to form part of your line. With larger armies, you may try things like an SA/YS center with YS or YC flanks angled forwards, that then swing for a three-sided envelopment -- but to succeed, the SA/YS center *must* hold.

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He is justly served; It is a poison temper'd by himself.

Widda
11-13-2000, 06:20
Good post Yabusama, Honor to Clan Dragon.
If Ican just add to it thou, on engage at will if your troops have a wider frontage they will wrap around the enemy and get bonuses from flanking...

11-13-2000, 06:35
This is a reallly good discussion. Tactics. Eek.

1) Hold Formation: The unit will stay in formation and will not break it. This is used in defence. Use it with Yari Samurai.
If the enemy uses it, use the wedge formation to break it.

2) Hold Position: This has two possible meanings:

a) ATTACK- When the enemy routs or moves somewhere else, your unit will follow. Use 'hold position' and your unit will not follow.

b) DEFENCE- You place a unit somewhere and use 'hold formation'. Your unit will protect that zone and again it will not follow the enemy.

This is all the mess.




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Magraev
11-13-2000, 14:44
I see the point about holding position with archers. I use them in melee myself if there are no better options available.

About hold position - is that what you use when defending a bridge ? I hate it when your troops start meeting the enemy on the bridge.

Anssi Hakkinen
11-14-2000, 05:04
But, oh why? It's good for you actually, as long as the enemy is superior to your forces: less of them can come at you at once. The good ol' STW combat simulator even implies that forces gain a defence bonus on bridges. So nothing wrong at all with defending on the bridge, unless it puts your men in the risk of being turned into hedgehogs courtesy of archer hordes. There was a "bridge tactics" thread somewhere around with more info...

(But I still decided to post this here instead of where it belongs. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Got carried away again...)

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"Carai an Mierendaira!" -- "Glory to the Blue Cross!"

Widda
11-14-2000, 05:24
Yes, very hard to get outflanked on a bridge.. :lol

The Black Ship
11-14-2000, 06:43
Not in Anegawa(that's the province with three bridges right?) Widda http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Methabaron
11-26-2000, 15:42
Bringing this interesting topic back to light.

In Hold formation, individual soldiers will not leave their place in the formation and Yari's will have a bonus which is good. But how does this affects the melee mechanics?. In other words, Longjohn2 explains that the soldiers will not rush to defend if the unit is attacked from any given direction. This means that only the soldiers in that side if the unit will fight?, this could end up in a lot of enemy individual soldiers outnumbering the small part of the defenders that are actually defending in melee?. If outnumbering, the attacker has more chances to eliminate defenders because it gets more attack cycles than the defender. Is the defensive bonus then really worth it?. Maybe the key is that a unit under hold formation and receiving a charge should be facing the incoming attack to maximize men in melee?

Also, if hold formation is ordered and a soldier is pushed back, will the whole unit move back to keep the formation shape or will the pushed back soldier try to get into position again, or none of the above?

Longjohn2 where are you? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-26-2000).]

BanzaiZAP
11-28-2000, 01:44
As usual, this is disclaimered with "from my own experience....blahblahblah."

When Holding Formation, and a defender is pushed back, he will move, but the unit overall will not. As the attacker pushes forward, the second row of defenders will engage, and the first defender can catch his breath and try to move forward.

Hold Formation is very effective with yari (both ashigaru and samurai) since it gives them an extra edge against cavalry. If they are on Engage at Will, they will suffer more losses, but in HF, they will lose almost no soldiers to an attacking yari cavalry unit.

Yes, they will get outnumbered and hammered if flanked, because they will not all charge to engage. Then again, ideally HF is used in defense, and you should never leave your flanks open anyway. Definitely keep them facing into the attackers! When surprised on the flank, and you can not get the unit to wheel in time, break them down to Engage at Will, so that they'll scramble as individuals, instead of get caught facing the wrong way. You still get a "disorganized" penalty, but it's not as bad as being truly flanked.

Even though the attacker gets more cycles, if it's a head-on fight, the defender will be much more difficult to kill-per-cycle, and a single unit can stay in place longer than otherwise. This allows a smaller army to hold out longer, or allows your other troops to get into better position, or flank the attackers.

-- B)

[This message has been edited by BanzaiZAP (edited 11-27-2000).]