Temporary cash flow problem (newbie question)

[Rhysy]

I'm new to Total War. A few years ago I was the richest faction, having an income of just over 2000 florins. Then suddenly I am still the richest, but have an income of negative florins After a few more years I got the message of (something like) No-one else has such a large annual income. Your embarrassing lack of money must be due to a temporary cash flow problem. Any idea why I have almost instantly lost all my income ? (I am playing as the Russians, on easy mode, if that's any help). How long will this temporary cash flow problem (which has lost all my money already) is likely to last ? And on a slightly more pesimistic note, how much money can I lose before the Russian empire falls victim to bankruptcy ?

[Naagi]

Hmm interesting that your getting those notifications when your in negative income. Maybe your over building which drops your income into negative. I have this problem a lot, also work on your trade network. Get those ships in the water. I think you can still go from year to year with neg income, though you wont be able to build very much and could get yourself into trouble if you needed to pump out some armies fast.

Naagi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Exile]

LOL..I love that smart a** notice. the 'highest income' message is based on which faction has the highest gross income - apparently it's you. However, your expenses are higher then your income, so your net income is negative -- at last a use for my economics/finance studies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif --

Anyway, your support costs seem to be high. Are you using mercenaries? those buggers are expensive to support. Send them to your front lines and use up their lives like the dogs that they are http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Otherwise, perhaps disband any obsolete units and work on bringing up your income - trade routes, mines, farm upgrades, governers with high acumen, etc. Make some conquest money, maybe so some raids and as a last resort, destroy any of your own buildings which you do not use - you get half the cost back I think.

[R3dD0g]

Since you have the highest income but are losing money the problem is your support costs. You must still be generating trade income. Are you still on a building spree? You might need to settle down for a few years.

As far as bankruptcy, I don't think you can ever go bankrupt. The manual says that you can go into the red when ransoming back your nobles. So, a negative bank is not unknown. And I don't think that units are disbanded when you don't have income to support them. The biggest problem I've seen is that you can't build anything new. Like a fort http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif in that new province you just took from the Danes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[ToranagaSama]

Check out the Table of Contents (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=2273) lots of info under Trade and Income.

[Gaius Julius]

If you have a large military, your support costs are huge.
Disband older units, only keep newest upgraded units.
Also, if you're using mercenaries, support costs very expensive.

Do your provincial governors have high acumen?
Beneficial for making more florins.
Also, what are tax rates set at?
Watch closely if set to high (possible rebellion).

What about economic improvements?
- farmland improvements
- mines
- trading posts
- trade routes (ships).

[Gregoshi]

Greetings Rhysy. Welcome to the Org forums Savings & Loan. Our loan officer barocca-n Bones will be happy to give you our highest interest rate. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You've already gotten lots of good suggestions, so my job here is done... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Tyrac]

Get rid of any mercenaries you have. They cost more to support then normal units. Get rid of them by sending all of them in one big army at the faction u like the least. Disbanding only after they have bled a great deal. They are honorless scum anyway.

[Rhysy]

Thanks, everybody

I didn't figure out the problem was, but it mysteriously cleared itself up in a single year - now my income is double what it was previously, it's now at 4,000 florins a year I didn't change anything I was building or training, or disband any units, but suddenly my income was restored to its 2,000 florins, and has gone up and up ever since (well I've been conquering lots of people and building farms everywhere, so it would). Very odd, but such is life.....

Support costs for the army are huge, but then Russia is huge (extends into France &#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif with farms and trading posts etc. in every province, so I can afford it.
I don't have any mercenaries, so they're not a problem.
Trade routs are blocked, but then they have been for decades (I really should build a fleet &#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, so that can't be it.
Tax rates are automatic and always have been, and seem to work well.
I haven't really paid much attention to acumen, perhaps I should...
I will have a good long look at that Table Of Contents too.

On with the war....

[Exile]

Quote[/b] (Rhysy @ Jan. 19 2003,05:53)]...Tax rates are automatic and always have been, and seem to work well...
Perhaps your provs were suffering from low happiness for some reason like your King was not in a direct line via provs of free shipping routes or enemy ships in the sea around your provs. The auto tax rate would adjust the taxes down to avoid rebellion (if possible), and then adjust up again when the occurance was resolved.

[rob s]

I once had a debt of over 60,000 florins but still came to win the conquest game with a final florin pot of 25,000 florins. I found the answer was just to keep invading, if you lose the battle your support costs go down, and if you win you get extra income from taxes etc

I have just discovered the delights of giving governership of a richer province to a general with high acumen. It does wonders.

[ToranagaSama]

Sounds to me that you may have qued (sp? up more buildings or units than your yearly income allowed for that turn. That along with your regular upkeep left you with negative cash flow for a turn or two.

Once your que straightened out, then your cash flow was restored. Remember, you can't spend more than your income or what's in the bank per turn.

You should have gotten a Parchment Notice when/if that happened. Do you recall?

BTW, I don't think you told us how much you had in the bank at the time.

Good Luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Have Fun

[caelio]

I've found that the best way to deal with money problems is to maintain a very small army (big enough to protect your borders) while you develop your economy and build a war chest. Build enough enough training facilities to quickly raise men if you get attacked. Use emissaries to bribe rebel armies- seems expensive but it can be a very good deal if you are able to get both an army(often containing some advanced units) and a province out of it. When you are ready to moblize a sizable force, your surplus will offset your losses even if your trade routes are cut.

I think mercenaries are terrific. They are expensive to support, but on balance can save you a ton of money because their availability reduces the need to maintain a large standing army. Mainting a small army in turn enables you to put more money towards econmic development. Certainly send your mercenaries into action first, but don't throw them away ineffectually just to reduce upkeep (you did pay for them). Build inns in your border provinces, and interconnect them with ports and ships to increase your response time.

[alby]

cancel all builds/units..only build 1 at a time

slowly but surely do u will progress

ive noticed that in mtw u have some lean years (kinda like seasons in shogun )

conquer a prov ..this seems to fool the AI (imho) then cash should flow again

btw dont forget that if u build a large army on trade etc then dont be surprised that when you're at war u struggling for cash

secret is build a warchest

[burma_mtw]

I believe that if you have ...the largest annual income but no cash-flow then your expenses are greater then your income. Queued builds shouldn't have an effect as they won't pop without money in the bank. Check your cash-flow by pushing the coin button. If it is negative then all should be clear.

Sudden large variations in income are usually caused by disruptions in a trade route.

I am not sure, but it may be that all builds are subtracted from existing cash before income in credited. Regardless, a large income is negated by larger expenses and just means that your available cash decreases each cycle.

Just my opinion...

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (burma_mtw @ Jan. 21 2003,01:27)]I believe that if you have ...the largest annual income but no cash-flow then your expenses are greater then your income. Queued builds shouldn't have an effect as they won't pop without money in the bank. Check your cash-flow by pushing the coin button. If it is negative then all should be clear.

Sudden large variations in income are usually caused by disruptions in a trade route.

I am not sure, but it may be that all builds are subtracted from existing cash before income in credited. Regardless, a large income is negated by larger expenses and just means that your available cash decreases each cycle.

Just my opinion...
Qued buildings will have an effect, for example:

Say your upkeep is X, your income is Y, you have M in the bank, and you que up 4 buildings (B) (or Units).

Turn 1: Y + M - X + 4B = Negative Cash Flow (No Buildings)
Or Y + M - X + 2B = Zero Cash Flow (2 Buildings)

Turn 2: Y + M - X + 2B = Zero Cash Flow (2 Buildings)

Turn 3: Y + M - X + 0B = Positive Cash Flow

Now, I am not a math wiz, so don't hold me to the exactness of the above, but I do hope it serves to be illustrative.

The one qualifier is that I'm not sure if the game prioritizes Upkeep or qued Buildings or Units or what??

Also, I'm not sure for instance, if your Upkeep is greater than your Income, yet your bank balance is able to serve, both, your Upkeep AND your building Que, if you will get the Message stating you are in Negative Cash Flow.

Is you bank account included when determining Cash Flow, or is it just your Income?

Its difficult to tell exactly what's happening, but the one hint is the negative cash balance. Is it increasing, decreasing or stagnant?

Just thought of another question, which may be key, when you click on the coins, the Income that's showed, is that before or after Upkeep? I believe it may be after, if so, then there you go. If your showing income, and you go negative, then the income is begin eaten by the Que. No?

Just throwing out ideas, I haven't thought any of it all the way through.

In any event, a quick way to get positive cash flow is to go have a battle and kill off some of your men (or disband un-needed troops); or perhaps clear your building que.

Anyone know any simple and easy method to determine what your actual Upkeep is?

[Rhysy]

Again, thanks to everyone for the quick replies

I think Exile has the answer....


Quote[/b] ]
Perhaps your provs were suffering from low happiness for some reason like your King was not in a direct line via provs of free shipping routes or enemy ships in the sea around your provs. The auto tax rate would adjust the taxes down to avoid rebellion (if possible), and then adjust up again when the occurance was resolved.


I had no idea that would have an effect I was busy conquering the Alomhads and wasn't paying attention to where my King was (very foolish I know), and several provinces were completely isolated, plus shipping was blockaded. Fortunately I succeeded in killing off the Alohmahds (sp ?) and now everything is hunky-dory : around 5,000 florins a year income, and the largest army as well Plus 60% of Europe conquered

About building buildings and training units, is the money required for each spent BEFORE construction begins (in one lump sum), or over the duration of the construction in small installments ?

[ToranagaSama]

Auto Taxes?? Might be, wouldn't know, don't use Auto anything.


Quote[/b] ]About building buildings and training units, is the money required for each spent BEFORE construction begins (in one lump sum), or over the duration of the construction in small installments ?

Not, before, nor over the duration, BUT at the moment construction begins, the building or unit is paid for.

Once you click End Turn, then the COMPLETE cost of whatever is at the far left of the build Que is deducted from your Income and/or your Bank Account immediately.

If you do not have the funds, then Construction will be delayed until the Next Turn, whereupon the game will attempt to commence Construction again each turn until you have the funds or until the item is removed from the Build Que.

If you have multiple items in multiple Ques, and the total cost of the items exceed your available funds, yet there is enough available funds for the cost of a single item in the Ques, then one of the items will be built, while the others are delayed until the next turn. This process will continue upon each turn until the items in the Build Ques are completed or removed from the Ques.

[burma_mtw]

Sorry, sometimes I don't write so clear. I'll give it another shot:

All is in reference to the original question about having the largest income but an embarassing lack of funds.

I believe that message is triggered when one has the largest annual income but a negative cash balance. In that case, trying to build anything has no effect because nothing will pop without cash.

Negative cash flow occurs when existing expenses are greater then annual income. If your income is greater then expenses but the cost of an annual build is greater then that years prifit you will reduce your war chest. In the truest sense, that is negative cash flow but not what the message refers to.

Pushing the coins button shows Income and Expenses. Both are gross amounts and neither is adjusted when you place something in a build queue until that build has completed. Most unit builds will generate additional expenses and will be reflected in the next year's coins report on the expenses line.

Once again, my builds have no effect refers to the situation in which one has an embarassing lack of funds because one cannot build anything anyway.

One scenario you may have encountered gives good insight into the AI's build logic. Here is an example:

You have little or no cash but will realize a 2000 Florin profit that year (i.e. Income - Expenses = 2000). You attempt to build some things that total less then 2000. At the beginning of the next year you get the insufficient funds message. This indicates that all builds are debited against existing capital and that profits are credited at the beginnig of each new year. That's another way of saying that builds go against your bank account, not your income, and are resolved before income is added to you chest.

Also, having a large income does not mean that one is rich. Being rich means that one has lots of money.