High honor/ Low honor and recovering from routing

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Routing more often than not, and not always on purpose, I end up noticing that low morale unit seems to recover faster than high morale unit (when those recover at all...) from routing.

For example, playing Turk, my val 0 Turcoman cav often routes more than once per battle, but somehow, they always come back, or I can rally them fast (else they could not rout again&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
On the other hand, JHI, when they rout, it's once and for all.

I know that there are two kinds of morale penalties;
1/ permanent one (unit reduced to less than 75%...)
2/ temporary one (losing, being under fired, being flanked, being with other router, which is my fav, etc...)

While routing, the temporary ones disappears (if ennemy is not pursuing), so a recovery is possible. But I don't think that initial honor matters.
Sure, high morale unit usually get routed with more loss (higher perm penalty), still when they rout, they also have a combination of temp + perm morale penalties, and the temp one disappears, so they shall also get a chance to rally.

Now, the question for the vet;

1/ is it my imagination? Are high morale unit really rallying less than low morale unit (for which rallying is just a kind of new formation under my command ... So maybe they get used to it...)?

2/ if yes then why, my god why?
Favorite assumption; different test value for routing and rallying...

3/ Do you think it's realistic? Or a good game feature?

Thanks for your reply,

Louis

[theKyl]

hm perhaps it depends on the unit distance to the main battle how quickly u can rally them again. The Turcoman Horse are very fast and therefor they can't be persuaded easily. They quickly rout away from the battle and aren't persuaded so they can be rallied.
The JHI is slow and if u were a routing soldier with some enemy troops behind u, u wouldn't turn around and die cos it would be suicide. And IF it depends on the distance, the JHI will need more time to be rallied just because they are so slow.

I hope my suggestions are not too far away from the truth
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[HopAlongBunny]

I think theKyl is right about turcomans; they just out run any threat and rally somewhere safe®. JHI don't rout in my exp until they are really badly beat up; higher perm penalties. As a fast foot unit they can run pretty fast, but any horse unit behind them will likely push them off the map.

It sometimes helps if you support a unit that is routing. This may mean engaging a pursuing unit or just moving in tight to the routing one; routers seem to get some comfort from nearby friendlies.

Does it make sense? I think so. Fighting til the last drop of blood is spilled is not really a popular idea; the idea seems to get more support the higher up the food-chain one goes. Elites might say rabble are unprofessional; rabble just say they're smarter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I don't want any of those guys to die I want them to run and then come back...

Maybe my example was misleading.
And I have overall a much harder time rallying any high morale guy (even cav) than low morale guy (even non cav... I also feel I can rally Saracen Inf with better success than JHI).

It might be that my perception is biased (I deeply resent not bringing back those JHI on the field&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif... Or maybe something else...

Thanks for your answer

Louis,

[TosaInu]

Welcome Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe,

Keep in mind that the morale value is not the only thing. There are also morale classes: peasant and elite (ashigaru and samurai in STW). A peasant can have a higher value in this game than an elite, but is more prone to penalties.

I'm not sure how it works in MTW, but 2 routing ashis (units) in STW hardly had an effect on the samurai. You could be fairly sure though, that 1 routing samurai caused most/all of your ashis to run.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Morale classes result in different morale temp penalties... I guess being disciplined also has an effect.

Thanks for your answer TosaInu.

I am wondering if, with Hopalongbunny I do not prefer those peasant units which for sure are routing in big number but that escapes fight, can rally and strike back instead of stupidly being trapped in a lost fight and getting killed until the last one...

Assuming they survive the initial rout and possible light cav pursuit...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Louis,

[Red Harvest]

One of the biggest factors in how soon they rally (perhaps *the* biggest) is how fast they can get some separation from the unit that caused them to rout in the first place. Even badly beaten up units will recover if left alone, unless they have so few men that it is impossible for them to rally. Light cav/cav archers rally easily because they are fast when they rout and soon have enough separation to rally from slow pursuits. JHI are heavy and slow by comparison so it will take them far longer to get away and therefore longer to rally. You can use any light unit to chase routed heavies off the map. Also, as has been noted, high morale units/elite are often nearly annihilated before they rout, while low morale units and ranged units rout when you sneeze at them. If the light unit hasn't taken much damage it will rally over and over again as long as nothing pursues it.

Is it realistic to have low morale units rally at all? Probably not unless the general and unit leaders are particurarly good at motivating their men. I've read quite a bit of US Civil War history and after action reports. Green units once shattered were often unrallyable unless exceptionally well commanded or made up of particularly tough stock or well disciplined. Solid veterans would take a pretty severe beating before being physically dislodged, but they were good about keeping their wits, locating their comrades and rallying even after appalling losses and even with few/no officers at company or regimental level. In the game units rally a bit too easily in my opinion. This makes the casualty count quite high. However, that is probably a game play compromise--it's not much fun to watch your whole army run a few seconds after first contact because they are hopelessly outclassed.

[HopAlongBunny]

Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Jan. 19 2003,00:10)]Is it realistic to have low morale units rally at all?
I agree in the case of peasants and perhaps urban militia. In the case of light horse though it is hard to say. For many war, raiding etc was a way of life and mobility was their weapon. It makes sense (to me) that they will run from a bad situation, but are more than happy to come back and look for better opportunities http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (HopAlongBunny @ Jan. 19 2003,01:13)]
Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ Jan. 19 2003,00:10)]Is it realistic to have low morale units rally at all?
I agree in the case of peasants and perhaps urban militia. In the case of light horse though it is hard to say. For many war, raiding etc was a way of life and mobility was their weapon. It makes sense (to me) that they will run from a bad situation, but are more than happy to come back and look for better opportunities http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
True enough. I agree about cavalry (other than particularly low valor/low morale rabble.) Historically cavalry has been prone to scatter and reassemble. They generally should rally.

[Jabberwock]

Hi,
To rout a decent unit you have to incur some fairly hefty negative morale modifiers, such as heavy casualties and/or completly exhausted. These are not improved by running away. However, the weak unit may rout through fear, being outnumbered, outflanked etc. When they run away these factors improve, and so does their morale. In isolation these factors would not rout a decent unit. In essence, they have a more stable rout/rally status. While this means they'll take on anybody, once they're off, they're off. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[A.Saturnus]

I wonder why so many take JHI as a example of a slow unit. They are as fast as Ghazi or Katas
I would also say that they only rout when they`re really beaten, so ralling them doesn`t make much sense. I don`t know if it has to do with unit speed. Halberdiers are slow, but can usually be rallied in my experience.

[Lord Of Storms]

Morale Modifiers Loose formation : -2, One flank threatened :-2, Two flanks threatened : - 6, Charged in flank : -4, Charged in flank by cavalry : -6, Charged by unit hidden in the forest : -8, Generals death (first few seconds) : - 8, After Generals death : -2(for the rest of the battle), Routing friends : up to -12, 10% of unit dead : - 2 ,50% of unit dead : -8, 80% of unit dead : - 12, Taking missile fire :- 2(-4 if weapons cause fear), Unit is very tired : -3, Unit is Exhausted : -6 ,Unit is completely exhausted : -8, Losing battle : up to - 8 (up to - 14 if losing to cavalry), These are just some modifiers I thought might be of interest or help , also you did not say if your cav was up against any camels on the field ,( cause horsies is scared of camels) , Camels have a +2 attack and a +4 defense against horses . http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif