Mongol Invasion: Formulating Basic Strategies

[jskirwin@yahoo.com]

I'm playing the invasion campaign (expert) as the Japanese, and here are some thoughts as I get my butt kicked out of Kyushu.

1. Your daimyo starts off in Yamamoto (Kyoto) prefecture - a shame since he's the only general worth a damn.

2. Is it worth knocking the rebel provinces in the East into line for the koku while throwing everything else into Kyushu?

3. What's a good counter to the Mongol light cavalry? The yari samurai get peppered with arrows, and when they attack the MLC move back to allow the YS to be outflanked - in which case they soon route.

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The Buddha is a gyoza. If you find the Buddha, eat him.

[Algesan]

1. You get a R3 heir in Echigo, a R4 heir in Mimasaka and a R5 (better than R4 Daimyo) in Kii.

2. I'm trying it that way. The Mongol AI looks like it reacts to numbers the same way as normal, lots of troops means it doesn't attack as much.

3. Use woods and hills. Make initial stand on hill with spears in support. Do NOT try and pursue. Rout the Koreans and return to formation. Place Ashi Xbows in hold formation and position, they are cheap. YA work well making short charges out of woods. It is even possible at times to force MLC to skirmish against you, interrupting their fire while your missile units continue to pour it on, however, do not get far from the defensive position and return to it quickly. Definitely be prepared to sacrifice YA against Javs, those things can shred units. After all your arrows are expended, move your SA into the woods. CA can be withdrawn or used as melee units (my choice). They can force MLC to accept combat on a downhill charge. In the right position you can charge yari inf out and take them in the flank. This has so far beat up the CA badly, but I wrecked the MLC, so IMO a fair trade.

After I'm out of missiles, I pull into the woods and sit under the MLC arrow fire until they charge in after me. Spears in woods vs. MLC = chewed up MLC.

I'm just using the tactics I remember were successful from history against the Mongols with infantry armies.

Edit: BTW, don't discount the Ashi Xbows. I'm getting more impressed with them. They can shoot longer than SA and the last few battles I fought a pair of them actually took more heads than the 4 or 5 SA I had. I would place them somewhere between Arqs and Muskets in effectiveness at killing, they do seem to lack the morale effect of guns though.

[This message has been edited by Algesan (edited 08-12-2001).]

[HATAMOTOKILL]

I cant take much more of this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif
i want my MI,US guys so lucky http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
all i can do is read these threads! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Hato!!!
Knight Owltwwooo!!!
http://hatamotokill.homestead.com/files/owl_flap_md_wht.gif

[qwertyuiop]

I'll mail it for a small price of $399.99! Only just over 190 pounds for you.

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

How about the nagi cav to counter the MLC ?

Nagi Cav got less speed than MLC but they got 5att, 2def, 4armour and a very good 8 morale

MLC: fastest unit of the game but they got 2att, 2def, 4armour and 4 morale.

Seems that in a melee situation the nagi cav should have the upper hand...Can you guys try it?

[Algesan]

Did a few quick NC vs MLC. Tried it straight melee (ick), skirmishing, advance to arrow range fire a few volleys and charge, same thing, but in wedge. Best results was from wedge where I lost 25-58.

[DoCToR]

how's that possible when the stats are totally in favour of the JNC?!!?

does seem highly dodgy...

[DoCToR]

or are you saying the MLC lost everytime?? lol

[BakaGaijin]

Ah, the joys of ambiguity... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

It seems to me that a good tactic versus the Mongols would be to concentrate on annihilating the Korean troops quickly. The Japanese have a definite advantage over them in Ranged combat, so it must be used! Archer fire ought to be concentrated on the Spear and Guardsmen units, since Skirmishers will absolutely soak up arrows, even crossbow bolts at point-blank range. Ideally, you'd attack the Spears and Guardsmen with the Samurai Archers and then rush the Koreans with Nodachi or perhaps Cav units (I haven't experiemented with Nagi Cav yet, but I assume they'd be best for this application). The Skirmishers will drop like flies in melee combat, and the other Korean Infantry will be no match for Japanese shock troops, especially after having taken casualties from the arrow bombardment. The Yari, then, should be applied only as a direct counter to Mongol Cavalry. The problem with this is that the MLC are very deadly with their arrows and will chew up the Yari at range. The solution, then, may be to counter the MLC with foot archers -- the MLC lose in archer duels -- which are backed up by Yari (since SA are absolutely decimated by the Mongol Cav). The other possibility would be to use Japanese CA to engage the MLC, then pull back the JCA. If the MLC fall for it, you may be able to draw them into a trap where they face both Japanese Cav and Yari at the same time.

Oh, and DEFINITELY occupy hillsides if possible when you are fighting Mongols. This will help to negate the awesome power of the Mongol ranged attacks, as well as force their cavalry to fight uphill... not a good idea when there are spears pointing back down at them.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[BakaGaijin]

One thing I forgot to mention...

The reason that you want to eliminate the Korean Infantry right off is so you can concentrate your surviving forces on overwhelming the Mongol Cav with sheer numbers. The main focus should be simply routing the Koreans -- pursuit would be foolish. Even if the Koreans manage to rally, they are so very slow that a competent Japanese player will have enough time to begin trapping the Mongol Cav before the Koreans can arrive to rescue them. And since units usually arrive piecemeal after rallying, they can be easily defeated one at a time without diverting much attention from the dreaded cavalry.

The basic moral is that fighting against Mongols with a Japanese army is VERY different than fighting another army of Japanese! Whereas Yari would be used as line troops as well as Cav interceptors against a Japanese army, they should be focussed solely against Cavalry when Mongols are the opponent. The Korean Infantry are weak enough that line units are not strictly necessary against them -- even Samurai Archers can be used against them in melee with fairly decent effect (although heavy losses among the archers).

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Thanks for the ideas Baba, woth bumping i feel.

[Algesan]

Doh, I did post that backwards. The NC beat the heck out of the MLC. I was running the MLC in a one on one in fine weather on Green, expert AI. The most the MLC got to kill was 25, the most that survived was 2. I could probably improve that ratio some, but I don't think it would be a lot better.

Baka, good points, I'm using the same tactics quite well. I do see a problem when trying them online against a live opponent, but they do work well against the AI.

[Obake]

OK,

I spent the weekend driving the horde back into the ocean on Normal. The first thing I did was abandon Kyushu entirely. I then moved what I could up into Nagato and the westernmost province in Shikoku (can't remember the name but it's just above Tosa). The Ronin provinces of Echizen (Asakura), Mutsu (Mogami) and Dewa (not sure) MUST be taken, especially Mutsu for the mine and koku!

I spent the first few years fortifying the Western provinces of Honshu while making sure that the Mongols couldn't expand out of Kyushu. While that was going on, I spent the majority of my annual Koku (about 60%) on upgrading the agriculture in the Mega provinces (Sanuki, Hitachi, Dewa etc.) and building mines where possible. I wanted to ensure that I had a very substantial koku flow on an annual basis.

My next focus was to upgrade every dojo that I had while continuing to fortify the west coast of Honshu (as far back as Hoki) with those upgraded troops. Needless to say my efforts paid huge dividends as the Mongol reinforcements dwindled and I was able to push some of them right back into the sea.

Then it was time to go on the offensive. I pushed back onto Kyushu and proceeded to take back my island! I did get hit with a nasty little suprise back on Honshu that almost cost me the campaign, but in the end I had enough in reserve to turn the tide and win.

Tactically, the worst thing to do is try to engage the Mongols in a running battle. The AI will try and stretch you out and hit you where you are weakest. It cost me a couple of battles before I remembered my lesson. Sticking to the woods is a good idea if faced with a lot of Mongol Cavalry. The Mongol foot troops can't stand up to the Samurai so they weren't much trouble. What caused problems was their foot troops pinning down mine in combat while their Cav circled around. When playing the Samurai against the Mongols, you have to be VERY deliberate.

Mongol Light Cav is very agressive even when on Skirmish, so the only way to truly take them out is give them something to shoot at while you move a couple of units to the far side. Then you can take them out rather easily. Just make sure you don't leave anything open or they will escape! The MLC will also fight until the last man. There were a number of times where I saw MLC units of 1-3 men that had rallied and were still firing at my troops!

NC will take out MLC quite easily, if you can pin the MLC down, or chase them into a corner, other than that, they'll just wear your NC down.

My only worry among the Mongol foot are the skirmishers. If you allow them to start throwing their spears, you can lose a unit before you know what happened. The biggest problem is that they move pretty fast as well and can keep away from even Yari although ND will catch them.

The Thunder bombers are only effective if they're throwing downhill. the time to worry about them is when the Mongols are on the defensive and you have to attack uphill on some of the maps. In the flats or when you are uphill, they aren't much to worry about.

That about covers it for now. I'll give more when I have more to report. Maybe we should start 2 separate strategy threads, one for Mongol strategy and one for Samurai strategy. Then again we could also add a 3rd for new strategies in the Sengoku campaign.



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Obake

I warned you, but did you listen? Ohh, no...it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it?

[DragonCat]

Mongol Strategies: (based on online play)

Stretch your opponent. With your speed you can then take your pick of flanks. I have frequently run rings around my opponent. Believe me, while they think they are winning the trenches against your linemen, you will win the battle with the punch from behind. I have been making my Taisho MHC. He waits until all other units are engaged and then makes SEVERAL cavalry charges. Maggy would be proud.

You need the linemen. They block and pin the Japanese units so you can smash into their flanks with your Cav.

Hold Formation on your Cav. That way they can always escape.

Don't get into corners. Although they fight down to the last man, the mongols aren't as strong 1x1, they need the flank bonuses.

The MLC is like that poppeel cooking thing- Set it and Forget it. Watching enemy troops try to chase them down while getting peppered with arrows to devastating effect is amazing. Plus, by the time you are out of arrows, you have them in a perfect position to be flanked.

Save your thunderbombers for when your engaging unit is almost finished. What do a few korean foot soldiers matter when you can blow up masses of samurai?

I've been using the following mix in my battles (mostly Totomi and 4th) 3 MHC, 5MLC, 4 Spearmen, 2 Skirmishers, 2 Guards- so 50/50 foot to mounted. But then, I'm no good with the thunderbombers, though others have used them VERY well against me.

Japanese Stategies against the Mongols: Obake is pretty much on the mark. I have beaten the Mongols- and on Totomi- and with me accidently pushing the start battle button before I was set up. I went over to the right side, used the little hillock there and make him come to me. I kept small interior lines, I had adequate missle defense, and I micromanaged my units to hell and back.

Hope this helps! I like playing the Mongols because I like cavalry, so I'm hoping people start beating them so that they don't get shunned. I like the fact that there are two assymetrical forces that need very different playing styles. I would hate to lose it and see all battles be Japanese only.



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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Pachinko]

The Mongol is kinda must up! I won EXPERT!! TOO EASY!! The Hojo is VERRRRRYYYY HHHARDD against the Mongol..hhhmmmm.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Pachinko aka EasyCo

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Thanks Obake and Dragoncat, worth another bump.

And now we have a counter unit for the MLC the Nagi cav....I told you so http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Now , i am sure if we soup up our 200 koku sams with extra honor, extra offence and armour we're in business to kill the expensive 600 Koku MHC.

[BakaGaijin]

If the Nagi Cav can whip the MLC head-on, then a bonussed NC unit must be pretty darned good against the MHC, too. And would still cost less!

The best bet against the Mongols definitely seems to be a solid defensive posture. It may be possible for a Japanese player to use the Mongol Cav's speed against them in a more open contest by trapping flanking units, but that would take a lot of skill for the Japanese and a decent Mongol player would beat them off easily.

I wonder, though, how upgrades can affect the equation. It seems that the Korean infantry aren't a match even for unmodded Samurai, so it may be possible to have vanilla H2 Samurai on the front line to engage the Koreans head-on... and then a nice H1 +3/3 or even +4/4 Yari surprise for the poor Mongol horsies who try to flank the linemen. The new upgrades really just add an entirely new factor to the unit choices for multi, and it will be a while before we figure them out. It seems to me that cheap units, like Yari, would benefit most from upgrades, while they would conversely be rather impractical for expensive units, like Cav.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[DragonCat]

Good point. The Weapon and Armor upgrades, as well as the usual Honor upgrades do make a difference. There needs to be a LOT of testing. I have been putting a single armor on my warrior monks to deflect arrows ;-)

There are a LOT more choices and thus surprises which makes it much more fun to play online.

now if only we could speed up UglyElmo in making those choices ;-)


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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[BakaGaijin]

This thread is too important not to bump.

I think that I'll do some testing with the upgrades later on tonight, assuming I don't end up talking to one of my friends on the phone for 5 hours again. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Irving]

whoa.. where is this campaign against the mongols.. is it in the historic campaings?

am i just a moron or is it late or what?

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[BakaGaijin]

The Mongol Campaign is under the regular Campaign screen, but it's "hidden" if you're not paying attention. I was lost for a few seconds, but then I noticed the two small faint shadows of arrows next to the mini-map in the screen which allows you to select your campaign. Click the left arrow to get the Mongol Campaign. To the right are the three new Sengoku starts.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Irving]

Oh.. radical

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu