Valor from Buildings

[Tyrac]

I am having trouble finding any real info so after useing the search feature for the last hour looking I decided to post.

I saw some things listed in the library but they were disjointed and prepatch.

What I have seen so far seem to imply that Master level buildings give a valor bonus of one. I am pretty sure I have seen this in action on my pure spear units I have built. Chivalric Sergants for example. I assume this is also true for any type of unit that just takes one building to build. Is that correct?

However the other units are not so clear. For example the many units that take two or more buildings to build. Do you get a bonus if you get both the buildings to the max level?

In the building descriptions it often says that the weapons made in them are of higher quality. Do units that use a sword that are produced in a master swordsmith fight better? For example Spanish Jinettes only take a horse breeder to train but it says they use swords in melee. Would Spanish Jinettes from a provence with a Master swordsmith outperform ones from a provence with no sword building at all?
The same question could be asked of other units. For example do gulam body guards benefit from have a master horse breeder in the provence?

I understand moral from churches etc. and bonuses from the weaponsmith and armorer's buildings so no need to reply with stuff about them.

Thanks.

[SmokWawelski]

I think that as far as armor and weapons, the building needs to list the modofier, as some do. If it does not, then it probably only means that some more advanced units will be availiable if you add some other training building. Might I be wrong?

[Lord of the morning]

The quality of the swords and shields is as far as I know only determined by the waponssmith and the armourer and the smith can only be produced in regions with iron, and then it gives +1,2 or 3 deppending on the level to all units, a master bowyer has no effect on quality of bows as ar as I know.

[Nelson]

Master bowyers DO increase archer valor by 1 IF the master bowyer isn't a required structure for the unit in the first place. Put a master bowyer in Trebizond and the trebizond archers will come out with 2 valor. This will not work with Bulgarian brigands because a master bowyer is basic for them.

[Kristaps]

Master weapons buildings do increase the valor even for units that are actually produced by the master building: just you have to send the units through training twice. Example, pavise arbalesters: after they come out of the training camp with valor 0, send them back to training camp. And voila, an extra year of training results in +1 valor for these guys.

It is possible to get +2 valor bonuses in provinces that produce +1 valor specialized units. Here are some examples: a master spear building in Mercia will produce +2 valor billmen in the first training round. Similarly, a master bowyer in Wales will produce +2 valor longbowmen and a master swordsmith in Ireland: +2 valor gallowglasses; a master horsebreeder in Armenia will produce +2 valor Armenian Heavy Cavalry. Haven't had a chance to experiment with other units yet.

Note, that +2 valor bonus does not apply to units produced by the master building itself. Thus, it appears to be impossible to produce +2 valor Bulgarian brigands.

[HopAlongBunny]

Wonder if anyone else noticed this...

I had one GA campaign where I was doing very well; built a master swordsmith in Ireland (thought I might get v2 Gallowglass); I did not get v2 Gallowglass until I built a master armourer.

[Kristaps]

I've noticed a few posts stating that the maximum valor added by buildings can be +4. Could anyone mention an example of such a valor boosting combo? The maximum + valor I have managed to get so far is +2. Example: maste spear maker in Mercia appears to produce +2 valor billmen. Haven't managed to get anything higher though.

[Silencer]

Does anybody know the building is required for chivalric knights and royal knights to gain +1 valour?
(it's not the master horse breeder as I just found out btw)

thnx

S.

[Tyrac]

I used a save game to test several units and buildings.
I was Spanish

All units taking one building to build will come out of the top tech building with one valor. Exceptions being those units that require the top tech building. These can gain one valor when retrained. Multiple retraining does not add more then the 1 valor.
Tested buildings- Master Sword, Master Spear, Master Horse, County Militia.
Units that take just Fort do not get one valor even from a Fortress. However this was only tested on peasants. If anyone has solid tested info on Vikings. Berber Camels. Woodsmen. Higland Clansmen. Please post it. (no guesswork please)
That is the easy part.

Units that take multiple buildings are harder to test. So here are some individual cases.


Lancers- master armor, master horse, master spear. First build 0 valor, retrain 1 valor,
Gendarms- County Militia, Master Sword. First build 0 valor, retrain 1 valor,
Pikmen- County Militia, First build 0 valor, retrain 1 valor,
From these units the conclusion is clear. If all buildings needed are top end tech then it is the same as units that take one top end building to make.

My next study was intersting. Mounted Sargents. Just needs Horse breeder and Spear maker workshop. When both of these are master they produced Valor 1 Mounted Sargents. However, with a Master spear and just a Horse breeder no Valor was gained. So testing it the other way around Master Horse and just a Spearmakers Workshop gained a valor 1. Hmmmmmmmmm Confusing? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Does anyone have any tests on Lithuanian Cavalry for this? They use three non master yet regular building and would be a great test case.

Another unusual Test case turned out to be simple.
Genoese Sailor. Takes a Port and a bowyers workshop. Also they all have a provence valor bonus as they are region exclusive. A master bower in genoa makes Valor 2 Genoese Sailors. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Province bonus plus master bonus.

For further testing I was badly limited by my irritating need to delete old games. The only save I had was Spanish. Not only can the Spanish not test any of the Muslim units but the Spanish cannot build a Baronial Estates. In all the tests I did I was unable to get a valor plus for any unit that needed a building from the royal court line.
Please if you have a saved game as HRE or Italians please please test this building line? Only HRE and Ital can build the Baronial Estate.

In addition I would like test information on several muslim tech lines and the units they build.
Military academy- Does it work like the port does for Genoese Sailors? Ie can you get valor plus for a Janissary Archer by REtraining it?
Mosque and Grand Mosque
Gazi Infantry. Do you get valor plus from Master Sword or do you need a Grand Mosque or is it both?

What about the Nizari, Hashishin, and Janissary Infantry.

I never even touch any of the modding stuff or things of that nature so all my testing was done with saved games and buildings and units I actually built.

Well that took a long time. I hope my post was not too unclear or hard to read as many of my long posts tend to be. I would appreciate any solid and tested input that anyone has. No casual observances or I think I saw this once Please.

[G_Love]

Tyrac: Thanks for all that info While I'm still a n00b (haven't finished a campaign yet, but I've started two different ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ), this info is very helpful.

[Tyrac]

Started a Novgorod campaign but have done maybe too many self handicaps. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif have not been able to test any new things yet. heh

[kaasbris]

Wow this is cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
Thanks Tyrac for tests. It helps me so much

[Silencer]

ok,

I've did some testing too. (post patch)

All mouted units that are knights (chiv knights, feudal knights, Royal Knights etc) don't get any valour bonus by master horse breeder. (or combined by master sword/spear/horse)
Even retraining them doesn't give them 1 valour.

Lower mounted units do, like jinettes, holibars, mounted sergants etc.
Seems to me: For mounted units, U NEED master horse Building (other buildings have no effect on starting valour)

Of Course there is one exception, and that is Lithuanian Cavalry, who doesn't get a valour bonus. That is because it needs a master horse builder. (the foldout shows picture of master horse breeder, but the text next to it says horse breeder, but you DO need Master Horse in the game)
U can get it to 1 valour, if u retrain the unit.

And Switserland is really wierd....
Master spear building -> train chiv sergants -> no valour. Retrain these -> +1 valour.
Other provinces, the chiv sergants get +1 valour with master spear building.
Swiss Halberdiers also get +1 valour in Switserland (besides the Swiss Pikemen)


S.

[A.Saturnus]

Janissary Heavy gets valour bonus when retrained, so do Hashishin and Kwarazmiam cav. Janissary inf don`t get bonus from Master Bowyer alone, don`t know what happens if you have Master Swordsmith as well. Didn`t test Ghazi yet.

[Tyrac]

So it would seem then that units that require the military academy follow the normal pattern similar to other units Can get a valor bonus with retraining.

Still looking for information on the mosque troops and the effect of BARONIAL ESTATES on the knight units. Feudal Chivalric, Royal, and gothic. At the moment I am thinking they may get a valor bonus for Baronial estate.

[Silencer]

Baronal Estates for valour 1 knights?? hmm could be, but I don't think so.

[A.Saturnus]

I`ve Janissary inf now. They get their bonus when you have a Master swordsmith, no retraining needed.

[Tyrac]

Cool, good to know A.Sat. List is getting pretty full. I will probably take the info i get off this thread and make a comprehensive list.....maybe heh.

[Silencer]

Baronial Estate

playing as English, I cannot built them.
Can Only the Germans built them?

[Silencer]

OK,

modded baronial Estates to english.
ANd yes, Knights get +1 valour when this building is present. Too bad, the building it's only availeble to the Italians and the HRE.

[A.Saturnus]

Finally I tested Ghazi, they get a bonus if you have a Master swordsmith, no Grand mosque, no retraining needed. Sipahi of the Port get bonus from Master Horsebreeder if you retrain them.

[econ21]

A lot of useful information in this thread, but there doesn't seem to be a TOC for this hall to make sure it is not lost overtime. Maybe Tyrac or someone should make short list and put it with the documents in the downloads?
Regardless, great work, people - thank you

[Gregoshi]

Simon, you read my mind. Tyrac, if you could write up a summary of the findings, we can make sure it gets into the Table of Contents. Nice work folks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Tyrac]

Ok I wil try to after I secure my southern front against the Egyptians....and after I complete my Readings for university. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif