View Full Version : campaign is broken
After not playing MP for almost a full week, I devoted some of my time to SP. And I think there, the SP is broken beyond comprehension.
Annie
(deleted most of the whining paragraphs)
Annie Maybe you should put back the whining paragraphs so we could see exactly what you mean http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Then maybe we could discuss the matter.
I agree. Bring on RTW... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
SmokWawelski
01-24-2003, 23:09
As Stich (sp?) said: This small one is a liitle broken, but she is OK
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Whining:
1. Read the Cheesy tactics topic in Main Hall.
Example: trade route is broken
2. Crusade. I figure I may even win the game simply by crusading around the clock.
3. All these agents, most are useless.
4. Diplomacy doesn't work.
5. Pope forgot about excomm. England and France are at war for quite a while. They remain both good catholic, because the Pope and his new incarnation has the brain that only has 1 bit of memory.
So, either I win the game, and then in that case I perhaps use a cheese tactic, or I lose the game due to very random events.
Annie
ToranagaSama
01-25-2003, 05:09
Uggghhhhh
I'm so tired of these single-faceted MP types making these ridiculous comments serving little purpose whatsoever. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
Guess what, Lady???
MP is broken so why bother????
How?
1) Unit balance is wacked
2) Maintaining a connection is a matter of luck
3) The general MP attitude runs toward the immature
Nuff said?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Rob The Bastard
01-25-2003, 21:41
http://wise.net.nz/users/robm/smilie.bmp
Ouch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Gregoshi
01-25-2003, 22:17
Come on Toranaga, single-faceted, ridiculous and serving little purpose? You are addressing the person, not the issues she raised. That tactic leads to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
As for LadyAnn being a die-hard MPer, we all have our little obsessions. Yours happens to be cheese and the undeniable fact (based on the flimsiest of statements) that RTW will have a MP campaign. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif As you very nicely stated, MP has its own issues. However, everyone has their own likes and dislikes and problems they can tolerate or find intolerable. Perhaps LadyAnn prefers dealing with disconnects, escapers, rude behaviour, campers, and unimaginative army selections more than she does an AI she finds dumber than a house plant, GAs that don't work, a Pope that is biased, trade routes that don't work and useless agents. So be it.
Besides, she edited out her comments but posted them back after being requested to do so. Now, you still have an opportunity to address the issues she has raised. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Well, I am just bored out of SP, because I told myself not to play MP for a week (it is 8 days now, my addiction is almost cured http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
Well, I miss my friends on MP... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Anyways, no need to flame, I was not myself after reading the cheesy tactics topic. I am restarting the Italian campaign, because according to the cheesy tactics, I am cheating by going for dominance of the seas.
I am replaying Italian with house rules now. Will post full campaign story soon. (yes, I am taking note every year on what was built and what happened. I stop taking note on my emissary activities because I don't think it matter much).
One of my house rule is that my trade routes would only consist of 2 sea spaces max. Also, I won't attack a province with significantly more troops than the enemy (within 20%, except assaulting castle, where I need many more).
Perhaps characterizing me as the MP type is correct. For your info, I am perhaps the whining type. If you read in Jousting Field, I am part of the chorus complaining about many things that are broken.
I was just hoping that CA will read my post and fix the SP.
Annie
You are missed much ann. Looking forward to your return. Right now I am wandering around alone without guidance through mtw foyer. Well... least my loosing streak is growing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement, LadyAnn.
We are all here because we like the game. If anything that CA can do to make the expansion(s) and sequels better is helped by our whining, then whine away.
P.S.
I don't think you sounded whiny at all, just frustrated.
Sorry, used the wrong emote Still learning this thing
Also you need to keep in mind, that while skill and knowlegde are a big part of MP...the ability to Twitch your fingers faster then the next players is half the battle.
Just like all RTS games.
Brutal DLX
01-26-2003, 15:09
Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 24 2003,21:07)]After not playing MP for almost a full week, I devoted some of my time to SP. And I think there, the SP is broken beyond comprehension.
Annie
(deleted most of the whining paragraphs)
No it isn't. Naturally, if you just started to play SP, then you have a lot to comprehend. If you got any specific questions, let me know.
ToranagaSama
01-28-2003, 09:25
Wasn't sure if I wanted to post this or not, but what the hey. Not looking for a http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Jan. 25 2003,16:17)]Come on Toranaga, single-faceted, ridiculous and serving little purpose? You are addressing the person, not the issues she raised. That tactic leads to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
Fine, if you view my comments as a personal attack, there's little point in arguing, but I will say that it was not intended as a personal attack upon Lady Ann, but rather a general comment regarding MPers. Note, ...MP types....
In general, I took her comments to be another MPer slight, for example: 'the campaign sucks, real women play MP', etc. That's how I saw it. Really, from the opposite viewpoint, MP is just as broken. Soo, it was difficult to take her point in any way but an 'unfounded' kick against those who prefer the Campaign.
Anyway, if she or you would care to explain how Agents are broken, I'd like to know. At my present recollection, I do not know of ANY broken agents; nor are ANY useless ones.
BTW, the Multiplay game is more broken than the Campaign can EVER be Nothing I do Strategically ever seems to effect ANYTHING in Multiplay. It would appear the Devs forgot to include the Strategy portion of the Multiplay game. Talk about broken.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif This is why I don't bother to play it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Regarding Winning By Crusading: OH JOY More comments of how the game sucks, because, I can beat the game with every Known and Unknown Cheesy tactic ever devised by man. Do we really need MORE of this??
Diplomacy: What exactly about it doesn't work? What exactly about it do you want to work? As it is, diplomacy works, but it may NOT work for YOU.
Ex-communication: I doubt the Pope has as forgetful a memory as you suggest, but rather you may have forgotten some of the factors involved with excommunication. We will never know unless you provide some background information.
Win or Lose: Winning or Losing the game has to do with acquiring a good understanding of the game. Acquire a good understanding of the game and you win without using Cheesy tactics. Regarding random events, there are no random events that will cause you to lose the game, BUT a poor understanding of the game may cause you to think random events cause you to lose.
Now, I realize that not everyone has the patience nor inclination to learn and understand the game, yet that doesn't mean the game is broken.
Again, in my view, many MPers attempt to play the Campaign game as if its a sorta RTS game, Command and Conquer or something. It is not, its a Turn-Based Strategy Game. Obviously, attempting the Campaign with this incorrect RTS attidue is bound to result in dissatisfaction.
With a nod to Gregoshi, I'll edit my comments. I stand by single-faceted, strike ridiculous and substitute Unfounded. I hope this will suffice, as I believe the post served little purpose to the community, though it probably helped the Lady to let off a little steam, which, in the end, is alllllrrrright. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
A.Saturnus
01-28-2003, 15:52
LadyAnn, maybe you should read the stories-thread (if you haven`t). Many if not all this stories were surely inspired by SP-campaigns. In SP you can feel like a ruler guiding his people through war and peace, starting campaigns against this or that faction, rally the loyalist after civil war and swear revenge if your son dies in battle. Once I defended Croatia for two hunderd hears for all costs against Almos and Sicilians while being isolated most of the time, not because this province were in any way important but because it`s Egyptian ground and I would sooner die (virtually) than let them have it
If you have a hardcore attitude - which you might have as MP-crack - you`ll probably start a campaign with the thought what do I have to do to win in the shortest time period against a challanging opponent, but in SP you`ll miss a lot of fun with this attitude. You`ll only see the flaws, the diplomacy, the strange behaviour the AI can show, but you`ll not experience what we SP-players experience when we create our own empire. You have to bring in some fantasy if you want to enjoy this game.
As for your post, I know the game has it`s problems (just as any other game I played in the past 17 years), but saying SP is broken won`t give the devs much of a hint, will it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Ah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I think people are getting defensive here... And inferred too much from my posts.
Please let me clarify myself, because some of what you said was unfair to represent my position. Let me be defensive too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .
1. I never said real men/women play MP. Although I am a hardcore MP player, I do play SP too, on and off. I never make such comment. Similarly, I never modd the game, nor making any map. That doesn't mean I think these people who do it are less of a player. They found ways to enjoy the game. This is different than when someone comes online after winning in SP and feel they can beat all those humans out there. It is just a different game, totally.
2. For the record, I dislike RTS games, the type that you misclick or pause for a second, your whole strategy goes down the drain. So it is wrong to say I approached the game in RTS mentality.
3. I did roleplay in SP. For example, I see myself as Doge Vitale II, a trader, a benevolent King. So, I always release prisoners, improve economy before building troops, be a good catholic and launch crusades. I took notes every year, very detail notes in the first 40 years, and a bit less now, but still recording major events. I intend to write a story from it. Although I play conquest mode and constantly watching who are expanding too fast, my goal is not to win it in 50 turns. Just like on MP, my goal was not to win each and every game.
Diplomatic agents are broken: you try to ally with as many nations at the beginning and accepts everything. It will come to a point where there is no need for emissary and princess anymore. I have only 1 emissary and he is very fine doing his job. I marry my princesses to my generals, and when somebody asked their hands, I just click yes. Factions sometimes reject your own proposal just to propose it next turn (I am not alone to experience this). They don't accept your daughter marriage proposal but would ask to marry yours. BTW, how do you propose to marry their princess to your prince? If there is one way, it will help me get less frustrated. If there is no way, then I would say it is broken, because the AI could do it and you can't.
My point is: I tried to use these features of the game and after a while found it irrelevant. To say that it might not work for me, that's perhaps true.
Spy reporting someone's intention. This is broken. Spy always warn about Hungary is mobilizing. But for 30 years, all they did was moving troops back and forth between Hungary and Croatia. This could be taken as my spy is low experience, therefore, reporting false info. So, OK, it might not be broken.
Agents such as assassins follow the targets to their own deathtrap. OK, you tell me to drop many assassins on same target, so that only 1 got caught entering a province with borderfort. But is that cheesy tactic also, because the AI didn't do it?
The game interface is broken because you get so crouded with the agents and you have to manage each and everyone separately. My agents sometimes hide behind enemy's unit. Sometimes I forgot about them, or it is a pain to select one (The cloak-dagger button may help, but still...)
win-lose: you use the game's advertise features and if you win, you are using cheesy tactics because the AI is broken in that regard. If you have to play with houserules, then I believe the game was not tested thoroughly enough.
I don't care if I lose. In fact, I think I will lose the current game, but still like it best.
About crusade to death to win: it is much harder now because I can't send crusade by sea and support it with my own troops. With house rule trade-route couldn't be longer than 2 sea spaces, it is not easy to send troops abroad, or have the finance to support it.
EDIT: forgot about the Pontif. Invade a province and the enemy withdraw, you won't get excomm. Take a province and the enemy retreat into fort, then the enemy sally out, he could get xcomm, not you. This is broken because the province should not have changed hand (you still can't build anything or tax it, and correctly so, but it is recorded as province has changed hand). I say it is broken because it is not consistent with itself. In v1.0, you can tax the province right away, which v1.1 corrected. But the correction was not far enough.
France and England are at war for quite a while, and France is attacking his neighbors. He didn't get excomm, he actually could launch crusade. Doge Vitale II attacked Sicily and get xcomm (he is over 60 and gone mad). But he outlive the Pope (he is now 79). The new Pope forgot about the xcomm (fine to me) but also forgot that Sicily still attacked by the Doge, war rage on. At least he should have been warned.
So, these are not bugs, these are features. The way microsoft Windows is built, I presume. It is not a bug, it is not broken. It is a feature that my computer hang while switching back and forth between the game and the notepad to take notes between turns.
END EDIT
OK, I have my whining now, so I won't do it again.
Annie
ps.: If you think I don't understand the game as good as any of you (SP or MP), then perhaps I have lost the reason to whine.
Gregoshi
01-28-2003, 21:51
Toranaga, my comments were simply a nudge to remind you and others to keep the discussion a discussion. I know you are quite passionate about the SP campaign and can get a little excitable discussing it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Edit: Ah, LadyAnn slipped in a few comments whilest I was posting. I see we have a discussion going now. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif LadyAnn's defensive comment gives me an opportunity to make a point (for once). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
To All: Please keep in mind that no one likes to be belittled. Nor do they like having people, places and things they like belittled - especially by an outsider, real or perceived.
Also, every negative comment directed at you or things you like, is not necessarily meant to hurt or offend. Give the other person the benefit of the doubt and query them further as to their meaning.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif This post didn't start out as a sermon... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Now, please continue. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
OK, I realize what I have done. My apologies to ToranagaSama and others: my subtitle why bother play singleplayer was offending. I didn't realize it until now...
Annie
Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 28 2003,14:16)]BTW, how do you propose to marry their princess to your prince? If there is one way, it will help me get less frustrated. If there is no way, then I would say it is broken, because the AI could do it and you can't.
Drop your emmisary onto the Princess in question. He will then ask if you want to have her marry into your faction, you say yes, and off he goes.
As for Excommunication. It has been discussed at length, but the Pope used ExComm as a tool to keep stronger catholic empires from gobbeling up weaker ones. So usually, the HRE will get excommunicated for attacking the Danes, but the Danes wouln't even get a warning attacking the HRE. Also keep in mind that the terms stronger and weaker are as defined by the Pope and not you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Thanks Phalanx for the tip about marrying foreign princess.
I have no problem about xcomm as a tool of the Pontif. I just point out he sometimes forgot and didn't apply his rules. In this case, France is growing and was about to gobble up England and Barcelona (forgot what the name of that little kingdom there). There is still no xcomm coming forth. Nor the fact that I am Italy and I am about to kill off Sicily. Got xcomm earlier, but new Pope just pardon everything and still condone my continuing attacking Sicily. This is where I perceive it as broken.
Annie
Jacque Schtrapp
01-28-2003, 23:40
Far be it from me to claim the title of historian. However, from what I do remember reading (I read A LOT) of the time period there never was any rhyme or reason to the Pope's actions. He was as much in the game as everyone else. Money and power could often be used to sway his decisions. It is precisely because of the Papal inconsistency in MTW that I like him. Don't get me wrong, he often annoys the poo out of me, yet at the same time it is hard to predict his response to any one choice made by a faction. Sometimes I think he is trying to control the strongest catholic faction and other times I think he shows favoritism to factions that crusade a lot. Then in the next ten turns or so he may excomm that same faction or even attack them himself. His unpredictability strikes me as realistic and interesting. I wouldn't say he is broken, merely insane instead. His actions leave all of catholic europe in one big http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
No wonder the picture of the Pope Urban III looks quite evil. Much better than the pictures of my wimpy heirs.
Annie
Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 28 2003,16:18)]Thanks Phalanx for the tip about marrying foreign princess.
I have no problem about xcomm as a tool of the Pontif. I just point out he sometimes forgot and didn't apply his rules.
You are welcome 'me lady *bows*
As for His Holiness, the problem is that he has a short memory. And very single minded. For example, it you are Italy and attack the HRE the Pope may say, no attacks for 10 years. So, he jots down in his little book to excommunicate you if you attack HRE in the next ten years. However, if you then attack Sicily, he will ignore that while to warning about HRE is in effect. This is a game flaw (bug?) and the only way around it is impose a house rule on yourself to avoid attacking ANY christian empire after getting the warning, or be realistic in your attacks.
There are some shortcoming in the campaign mode that you need to address yourself via your gameplay. However, I do find is satisfying to take a vastly undermanned/equipped Army into battle and defeat a superior force. However, the AI is not always the greatest opponent after his initial 16 units have been depleted, so again, you need to short stack yourself to make it fair.
Its not broken. Maybe your broken and dont know it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
LA,
I have played the SP extensively and I would agree with most of your frustrations - at little stretch I could probably add a couple - like allied factions invade a province that your passing through with a crusade and are suddenly at war with you.
The thing is having finished the add on and already working on the RTW - do you really think that whining at this late stage is going to get anything fixed - SP or MP - its just going to antagonise the hardcore SPers.
As some of the replies have said youve goto put in to get out and to some extent ignore the obvious shortfallings - in essence its still a cool game and you can still have fun playing it despite not being perfect - cause this is the way its going to stay till the next one
Two patches tell em their dreamin http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I would agree that with Ann that the AIs don't form proper trade routes, however I have found that this is because the priority of ships was set too low, and perhaps their price and build time were set too high.
I have had a lot of success with getting the AIs to build good naval forces, enough to spread out and form trade routes, by increasing the priority given to ships in the crusader text. This success has allowed me to make some other changes which also make the game more realistic. Check out the Medmod if you are frustrated with SP. It can't address some of the things in your whine list (get it, whine list http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ...sorry), but you may find some other changes that you do like.
P.S.- I think that if you edited your profile to reflect your correct gender, your icon would change to female.
Quote[/b] (WesW @ Jan. 29 2003,09:03)]P.S.- I think that if you edited your profile to reflect your correct gender, your icon would change to female.
Nope it won't
Gregoshi
01-29-2003, 16:25
Tempiic is correct. Alas, all sub-500 avatars are testosterone-based. I know we discussed this before, but I don't remember the outcome.
Lady Ann - I think most experienced players agree with many of your points (trade is unbalancing, diplomacy could be better, the Pope is too annoying etc). Yet somehow I and many others have been playing the SP game regularly since it came out and still come back for more. For me, the tactical battles are amazing - more pathbreaking and vivid than any computer wargame I've played. The strategic map is fun enough, with lots of strategic possibilities and purchase/upgrade/gather experience style hooks to motivate playing the battles. Yes, it's flawed but its aim is so ambitious and its accomplishments so impressive, to call it broken is like saying the space shuttle sux cos it can't take you to Mars.
Did you play Napoleon 1813? Or the earlier Civil War game by the same designer? Both tried to pull off what Shogun achieved (turn-based strategy map + realtime battles). When the French Imperial Guard you've just purchased marches off to join the Russians and when the AI can never be brought to battle, that is when a game is broken.
I must have played 50+ computer war/strategy/RPG games and probably over half were broken in the sense that I would not want to play them more than 10 hours; TW is among the 10% or so that you can devote 100+ hours to and still want to come back to later. When I first heard about Shogun, I thought this is too good to be true. It was true.
Anyway, I guess we're foolishly disputing about tastes here - I'm not flaming you, just trying to show how people may agree with all your points but not your conclusion.
ToranagaSama
01-31-2003, 20:52
Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 28 2003,17:18)]Thanks Phalanx for the tip about marrying foreign princess.
I have no problem about xcomm as a tool of the Pontif. I just point out he sometimes forgot and didn't apply his rules. In this case, France is growing and was about to gobble up England and Barcelona (forgot what the name of that little kingdom there). There is still no xcomm coming forth. Nor the fact that I am Italy and I am about to kill off Sicily. Got xcomm earlier, but new Pope just pardon everything and still condone my continuing attacking Sicily. This is where I perceive it as broken.
Annie
A couple of things:
1) I think everyone should give Gregoshi a Nod for performing his duties as Moderator in a most perfect way. Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
[TS attempts his best Erol Flynn, Shakesperiean, Men In Tights, down on one knee impression. Not a pretty sight]
2) Fair Lady, it is with sweet sorrow I extend my apoligies and offer my hand in friendship, for your presence here, among us men of Total War, is like the rays of the Sun upon the Earth, without which it would be a dark place indeed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
------------
Another thing to remember regarding The Pope/Ex-Comms is Alliances. One can ally with the Pope. Is France allied with the Pope? How do England and Barcelona stand with the Pope?
Another thing, that might be considered in trying to comprehend The Pope, is the percentage of Catholics. Will The Pope ex-comm say a faction with 100% Catholics vs a faction with 75% Cathlolic.
Say a good Catholic faction is grabbing province after province and, in turn, building churches and training Bishops, and overall creating good catholics for The Pope, this faction would probably have an edge over other factions not so deliberate in their efforts on behalf of The Pope.
Has anyone witnessed the Pope to Ex-Comm one of his allies?
In general, I don't think Ex-Comm is exactly broken, but I do believe the feature is GREATLY undocumented (as are many things within the game). This is what leads to a lot of confusion with the game. CA/Activision are wholly at fault for this. (I think a thread re Rome's manual needs to be started so that they FULLY understand what we want/need in a Manual.)
Cheers to all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
powdermonkey
01-31-2003, 22:44
Sheesh, you guys
You'd think this wasn't the best game to hit your pc last year http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
SP's definately got faults (bugs? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif ) but it's still a big improvement on most of the rest of the drivvle on the market at the mo. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
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