Byzantine Anti-Cav

[DemonArchangel]

title and description says all, please help me, those @#$%-ing gothic knights keep killing me online, when i'm the byz. Gothic knights in SP kill me too, what do i do?

[Alrowan]

some suggestions... use your cav you counter thier cavalry, as you cant use varagian guards in late it makes it tougher.

use Kataphraktoi or Pronoial Allagion against them. Byz are quite weak in the later periods

[The One Wraith]

GREETINGS
I know how you feel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
Now, I'm not that good (yet), but there's a little something about Gothic Knights.
Counter with legions of armor piercing units.....legions
I've torn apart armies of lancers with a few of those Gothic Knights.
Your units should be unarmored (preferably), as I believe they do have armor piercing.

Here's what to do: charge with your mega-cav (Kats or Allagions), and flank 'em with armor-piercing guys. Before any of that, though, try to bait 'em into exposing their side and making 'em pincushions simultaneously.
ALERT Order archers to stop when melee units engage END ALERT

Hope I've helped

[LadyAnn]

Gothic knight is only available in late, and in late, Byzantine don't have Varangian guards. So Byzantine is quite weak in late, without the cav killers (only have wimpy spearmen; You must upgrade spearmen to val4 in MP, and even given val4 spear some weapon upgrade too).

Since gothic knights have armor piercing, sending heavily armored cataphractoi to counter them is risky. I would send alan cav (or pronoiai cav) to counter the gothic knights, if I can't use spearmen to do that.

So, Byzantine has the double problem of having no armor piercing unit (except urban mil. and varangian guard) and no cav killer (only regular spears).

In SP, the problem is worst due to the fact you can't buy valor. However, you could build master spear maker to give your spearmen some valor and upgrade them also with armor/weapon. This allows you to have decent anti-cav force.

Annie

[CleverClothe]

Use Arbalests to wear them down. Then pin them with some Inf charges. Then Calv to the rear (same old same old). Of course the hard part is getting the room and time to do that...

Might also think about the historical route of using Mercs.

[Mr Frost]

Though this only effects S.P. : Learn thyself to mod
I modded Saracen Infantry {now have in battle/F1 screen : melee 0/1 , defense 4/8$ , armour 5$ moral 2 with the Dicilpined advantage} , made them also an Orthodox unit {though only Byzantines have them , not Novgorod or Russia} and made them a Byzantine unit {though Turks and Egyptians still have them also} .
I made Varangian Guards ALL_PERIODS and Naptha Throwers 60 man units {I modded Byz. Inf. 60 man also , and upped their stats to compensate} which make nich anti-anything in the right circumstance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif {and make Jihads rather more nasty , as do the 40 man Hashishan units they often throw up now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif} .
Byzantium now suits my requirements when I want to streatch the game to take Byzantium through the entire three periods and still be competitive {for the Glorious Achievements victory} .

In M.P. , I would suggest you stick to high period {many will wail and gnash their teeth if you play Barney in Early battles ... then they will Run to their massed Lancers for comfort I would imagine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif} and put a lot of trust in those Varngians : there are few situations they cannot handle

[Mr Frost]

Oh , and three very important words to remember with Byzantium in an S.P. game I should not wonder are :
Swiss Armoured Pike
Any opponent who would cry foul if you resorted to Swiss Armoured Pike when playing Byzantium on line in Late Period battles but then cheerfully launches waves of Gothic Knights at your rather obsolete soldiery has a small case of L.O.T.F. {Lack Of Testicular Fortitude} and can be safely ignored http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

I do hereby declare this week Kobayashi Maru Week.

I swear (figuratively), every other topic with a how do I beat... question has someone jumping in with a way to mod the game to fix the problem. It seems we have too many James T. Kirks reprogramming the computers to win. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Mod Mania has hit the Entrance Hall. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I smell cheese... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Yes, modding is always a solution, but not neccessarily the best nor the easiest.
As the others said, try upgrading your spearmen by building them in provinces with a metalsmith. They aren't as shabby as some people think, just need to use more than three per stack.
Another good point mentioned before is hiring mercenaries, that way you can possibly counter with Gothic Knights of your own or perhaps armour piercing Mamluk Cavalry or pikemen.
Finally, it is late period, and Byzantium should be on the forefront of gunpowder technology. Use your field artillery, use your arquebusiers on the flanks or from uphill to give those charging knights a proper welcome. Of course, simple arbalesters will do the job too, but if you can build arquebusiers, use them, that's finally some job for them to do...

[Snark]

Haven't encountered them yet, since I'm only playing SP-Campaign.
But playing Almohads, with somewhat weak units too, against lots of chivalry knights and suchlike, I'd suggest the following or a combination:

1. lure them into the woods, then attack preferrably from all sides.
2. setup a spearmen wall and behind them 5-6 Arbalest units. These kill Cav. very, very quickly. Guns might work well, too.
3. Engage them with low value units and charge into their rear.

In some posts I found remarks, which confuse me a bit.

These are:
Your units should be unarmored (preferably), as I believe they do have armor piercing.

and Since gothic knights have armor piercing, sending heavily armored cataphractoi to counter them is risky.

They seem too suggest, that units with armour-piercing weaponry have less effect on unarmored units then on armoured ones, which I believe can't be true.
Armour piercing just says, that these weapons *can* pierce armour, not that they are more effective against armour than against unarmored targets.
A heavy arrow fired from a longbow might pierce armour easily. However, that doesn't mean, it doesn't pierce *you* if you throw your armour away and run around the battlefield in the nude....

Generally I believe bigger armour is better protection, even against armour piercing units its better than no armour at all.

[A.Saturnus]

Well, being unarmored doesn`t bring armor-piercing weapons of course nor does it bring a protection against armor-piercing weapons but using Katas against armor piercing units is not the best idea because their armor is their main advantage. Gothic knights will take much longer to cut down Byz inf than Katas just because they are more men.

[mario_yepes]

There is a lasting solution to gothic knights, that is blast through Hungary and before one of the catholic factions Crusade against you, use your mega winnings
from Hungary to crush HRE That should stop that predicament http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Otherwise, yeah, pikemen are the only alternative. I am currently playing Byz on hard, and I had to blast through Eastern Europe to get Switzerland and develop it before Italy makes my trade suffer Acck All the Catholic factions are at war with me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[LadyAnn]

Didn't realize Byzantium has Swiss Armor Pikes (or any swiss unit). Thought it was taken out in v1.1. I could be wrong. Will take a look soon.

Annie

[DemonArchangel]

ok, i need to ask more questions later.

[mario_yepes]

SORRY Should have mentioned I have not installed the patch yet. I have no internet access, cannot play online http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Although I will once I do. Dunno though, you may be right...It's my first time playing the Byz, I could be wrong (and in a heap of trouble) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[LadyAnn]

Then in v1.0: swiss pikes in late is the answer to all your problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Annie

[kataphraktoi]

Anyone want to add a new unit called the klibanophori?

This the highest level of the missile-shock action trooper, the klibanophori is more heavily armoured than the Kataphraktoi and also armed to the teeth.

i have a file I'm working on and have successfully added the Klibanophori as a new unit into my byz army list.

Klibanophori
1000 florins

requires:
master horsebreeder, bowyer, master armourer

excellent attack
excellent defence
irresistible charge
excellent morale
armed with bows
bonus vs armoured troops
very heavily armoured
etc.

this unit comes with an axe, lance, bow and a shield

its weakness is it slowness, I made it slower than the Kats obviously.
it can be beaten by numbers
it can be beaten by strong heavy infantry
it's scared of bedouin camels

And its yours today, if anyone's interested I will upload it, if not I won't bother.
Change the stats of the Klibanophori if you disagree.

[Mr Frost]

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ Jan. 28 2003,18:20)]Then in v1.0: swiss pikes in late is the answer to all your problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Annie
I wondered where the SAPs disappeared to in custom battle at one point ; however , they did not vanish from the various factions untill I installed Paladins' 1092 {they have since reappeared after some further mods} so I was unaware that they had been deleteed from some factions in S.P. {as you imply} http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

If they were removed for some eastern/non Catholic Factions due to some percieved cheesyness , I certainly hope they deleted Alan Mercenary Cavalry from , say , England and France , as being they were a Steppe people , the odds of them serving in any noticable numbers in and English army are about the same as Swiss Armoured Pike seving in a Byzantine Force .


As for moding , I prefer it , as there are already far too many anoyances and dissapointments/denyals of desired events or objectives in real life for my tastes , thus I am dissinclined to indulge in such for a hobby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I would imagine that Gregoshi and Brutal DLK must have extensive leather and handcuff collections http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif You guys won't be real hardcore players untill you mod your systems to deliver electric shocks to you soft bits when ever you lose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I smell pudding with those little marshmellows in it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

Hello there,
I didn't know that varangians get booted after early, why is that?
Also, when i try to mod the file, its screws it up, i have tried tabbing, but perhaps im doing it wrong, how do i put the all periods in without stuffing the code?
Also, that byz unit you made looks impressive, but wouldn't it take everything out too easily? did the Byz have any newer type of spear/anti cav unit later on?
Z http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Mr Frost]

Varangians are deleted as a buildable unit {though you still have any surviveing units for as long as they survive} after the High period because {I gather} it is reasoned that not only was the unit purely cerimonial by that time {at least I think it was ... not too sure of that history} but the barbarian type of Saxon/Swede etc was in rather short suppily to Byzantium by then .

I reason that we change the course of history when we play thus Byzantium decides in my alternate histories to continue the unit as a combat arm , and that there is allways some hard and dangerous loonies around that can make the grade to be found and recruited .

As for the Varangians power ... yeah , they are rather uber {especially in Early Period} , however they arn't cheap and take two years to build and don't have the maneuverability of cavalry ... I like to make a game last also , and they stay competitive right through {especially when nearly all other units have been outclassed significantly} .

Sadly the Byzantines don't get better spears unless you mod them in {those vanilla spears are so unattractive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif} .

To mod as you request : First you only put Quotation marks {you know , these --> things} around the entries if you have two or more items {whatever you call 'em} of information {like with EARLY, LATE} . With single entries in a coloum {like EARLY , or the ALL-PERIODS your looking for} you just replace what is there {including Quotation Marks} and replace with the single entry .
I.E. : Replace EARLY, LATE with ALL_PERIODS with the first character starting in the spot that the first quotation mark around EARLY, LATE was .
Remember to use CAPITALS and that little_line_thingy_on_the_ground_between_the_two-words http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hope this helps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Ofcouse , I shall also advise BACK UP that file before you mod {because I is a good little modder I is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif}

[Mr Frost]

Doh ... my dyslexia struck once more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Where I typed EARLY, LATE I *should* have EARLY, HIGH

Thus you delete EARLY, HIGH including the quotation marks and replace with ALL_PERIODS with the first character {A} right where the first quotation mark was .

[kataphraktoi]

Empress Zoe

The Klibanophori has now been remodded it no longer is a missile shock trooper but simply an upgraded shcok trooper equipped with a lance and a mace.

If it seems too powerful then you can adjust the stats in the crusader prod 11 file. I gave it a new look by adapting the body of a LAKNIGHT mount(I thought that kind of rider respresented a klibanophori better) and an ARMHORSE(plate armour galore&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yes the unit can be beaten just like any other unit, is has excellent stats but it is expensive to build and takes years, plus the number produced has been cut down, it is all balanced out I assure.

Interested???

[DemonArchangel]

kat, errr... i'm a newb with modding, explain to me how to make/get the kilbanophori. *recommendation, historically speaking, Kilbanophori used swords and lances, and the rider should be kept as the standard Kata rider.

[Gregoshi]

FYI, the Dungeon forum is loaded with people quite wise in the ways of modding. The forum also features about 20 pinned topics containing modding secrets from the ancient world. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Quote[/b] ]*recommendation, historically speaking, Kilbanophori used swords and lances, and the rider should be kept as the standard Kata rider.

What is the standard Kata rider?

The Klibanophori used all kinds of weapons, there was never a standard rule for all Klibanophori, historically speaking they were basically well armed from shock to missile weapons similar to the Kats. You'll find with this new unit that the Klibanophori uses the same weapons but not all, a lance and a mace were the shock weapons of choice, the Klibanophori was a shcok trooper but also a melee specialist, the mace therefore was quite naturally part of the itinerary and more deadly than a sword. As for the look of the Klib, plate and mail covering from head to toe suited the descriptions of what the Klib looked like, the only exception is the Kabadion(paddedcoat.

But anyway if you wanna know how to make/get this klib unit you'll need the following files:

1. the actionspage
Total War\Medieval - Total War\Textures\Men\Actionspage
Make a text file named klibanophori and place it in the Actionspage folder, open the new txt file and place the parameters of the LateroyalGhulamKnights, make sure only the stand, die, charge, run and walk parameters are copied and pasted - exclude the fight parameters for now.

Once you have done that go to the Gothicknights file in the same directory and find the parameters for fight and paste it in the klibanophori file txt. Now you have your actionspage file txt, this dictates how the unit executes its actions.

2. Defining the weapons and shield of the unit
Total War\Medieval - Total War\Textures\Men\LaKnight
In the same directory as Actionspage is the folder LAKNIGHT, within that folder create two new txt files and name them -
Klibanophori_W
Kilbanophori_S

In the first txt file put the number 1,2
In the second txt file put the number 2

Bah forget it I'll tell you what. send me your e-mail and I'll send you the whole Klibanophori file with instructions and all, it will save my time and yours.

If you don't agree with some of the stats for the Klib please feel free to change them as you please, after all modding is a reflection of personal interpretation more han anything else.

[Empress_Zoe]

Thanks for the tips
Finally some of my modding is working, now still having troubles with changing how many nations for a unit. ie: varangian guard to russia and byz is doing the usual format wrecking, but i shall prevail.
Z http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[kataphraktoi]

want me to mod it for u and send it thru e-mail for ya?

[kataphraktoi]

By the way Empress Zoe did u name urself after the byzantine Empress Zoe herself? Niece of Basil II Bulgaroctonus who married Romanus Argyrus, Constantine Monomachus, Michael Calaphates and ahost of other hubbies.

[DemonArchangel]

ok, kata, my email is harpyknifexplosive@hotmail.com