Dealing with Kataphractoi

[Fairlight]

Okay, these tank-like engines of destruction just seem to plow through pretty much anything I throw at them which isn't high-valor spear-weilding wall-of-horsey-death type. I mean, I had Byzzie Emperor with 20 of them plow through 120 feudal sarges like tanks over Chinese protestors.

They just seem ridiculously overpowered -- I've seen them easily get 20-1 kill rates.

[Nikitas]

I'm not an expert on anti-kataphractoi tactics, I ususally play the Byzantines on SP and no one really gives me much trouble, but I would suggest not depending on spears alone. Use spears to hold the kataphractoi while other cavalry( knights, no light cav.) flanks them. If possible try to draw them into a forest where they will be vulnerable because of the trees.

[ShadesWolf]

Fairlight was country are you playing as ?

Spanish lancers are a good reply, so are HRE cav

[solypsist]

the Kat get tired pretty easily - one charge and that's pretty much it (though it is a very devastating charge) so just try absorbing the Kat attacks with feudal sergeants or some other large holding unit and flank attack.

[HopAlongBunny]

Kats are not as bad as I once thought. If you can get the spears to hold for a bit militia sergeants, halberds, arb's and the like will usually cut them up pretty good. The real problem comes from a v8 0r v9 leader. The added valour seems to make any unit unstoppable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

If that is the case, then you can either put a like valour general/unit against it (they grow on trees right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) or you can just avoid that general til he dies (in the case of a king) or delay engaging that stack until you have the means to kill it.

Good luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Aleborg]

Kats are nice units, but all cavs are.
To avoid them try to dont let them flank ur units. And always dont attack them with just one unit or it will be rout easily. And also, units like feudal sargents are nice vs them.
Also, as nikita said, try to hold them and flank with other cav units (in my opinion, for flank from the back of the enemy, lights cavs are also nice and quickest units...)
However, they arent the best cav unit (kats), as lancers are.
Lancers are really a high problem. (normal, coz they are spanish... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[Brutal DLX]

Please be so kind and give your missile troops some work to do. You will not be disappointed. After that I suggest, as the others, a double engagement with a spear unit and an armour-piercing unit like militia seargents or anything similar. Those horses will be gone in no time, except for any super general, but even he will fall in the end.

[Znake]

Kata's has a weakness their lack of speed, so use chivarlic Sergeants in hold formation then flank or rear them with a faster unit like cavs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Fairlight]

Thanks for the replies. It looks like a matter of careful-but-standard battlefield tactics. Soften with archers, then meet in with a spear wall and flank with good attackers/chargers.

[A.Saturnus]

Normally, Chiv Knights should defeat Katas, though they can be tough in the early period and the Byz uber-generals are a problem. In early times, try mounted crossbows, they are good against their armor. In later periods, there should be enough anti-cav units to counter them. Had once JHI fighting Katas in the wood, was like mowing grass http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[powdermonkey]

Kats are great - but sooo slow for horses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Still, they've turned may a battle for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But like all units in the game, they die messily when surrounded http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[some_totalwar_dude]

flank them, surround them, kill them from a distance, let them fight uphill, or use there slow speed against them. example: horse archers, mt. crossbows ect.

[desdichado]

trick I used once was to stick a unit of bulgarian brigands in their face. kats started chasing them from one end of the map right up to my lines. cause their so slow they couldn't catch them even when running. They must have been close to exhausted when they finally reached my main line. of course at valour 9 they still beat me but took longer than normal.

I'm sure it could work with horse archers and the like in right circumstance (against AI only). i doubt few human opponenets would be quite so stupid

[Plaxx]

Horse archers usually work great for me against heavier cavs, especially Spanish Jinnettes or Mounted Crossbows.

[kataphraktoi]

Fairlight

Kats overpowered??

Yeah well if you byz generals with tons of stars remember than each valour gives a bonus so theres your explanation for overpowered.

But anway under the right circumstances the kats can be turned into fogfood

I've plowed into muwahid spearmen and got trashed, i charged into camels and was massacred, nowadays I never fight without a Byz Prince leading the charge, and the result? pure rollover, dirty turks don't know what hit em.

Anyway the point is Kats can and always will be beaten, there are other heav cavs better than the Kats, if u think the Kats are overpowered then check out the western knights in the late period.

[Night Fox]

Hmm...kataphroktoi, are you Greek by any chance? I am which is why i play Byzantines alot and crush the filthy Turks.

You'll notice Kats have only Good morale rather than the usual Impetuous afforded by the Royal Knights and such like. Noisy handgunners, surrounding and massed crossbow fire into their rear work real nice.

I think that the Kats are the only cav unit who can hold their own in a melee mosh without taking too many casualties - other cav units must withdraw then charge, withdraw then charge. Kats also have a high push-back factor, so ensure that ranks are 4 or more deep (even for swordsmen + archers) so your forces aren't forced back too far. For every inch the Kats push you back, they gain many fighting advantages - so have deeeeeep ranks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Namarie]

I've noticed that most units giving me a headache can be dealt with by using the tactic described above, stall with one unit, flank with one unit, smack it dead. :P

Sometimes, I even send out a army with lower quality troops just to nail one particular unit in the enemy army.

[Kongamato]

Theoretically this will work.

In the era past the scope of this game, say 17th or 16th century, cavalry was as big a menace as these Kataphractoi are being to you. I have an untested tactic against cav that takes from an earlier strategy for stopping a cav charge.

When the cavalry would charge, musketeers/arquebusiers would wait until the absolute last moment to fire their weapons, with the intent of killing the first row of cavalry, making a wall of dead horses and men to stop the charge of the cav unit.

In the game, I have seen arb and crossbow bolts hit horses and cause the unit, or at least major parts of it to stop moving, therefore losing their chargebonus. With arbalesters or crossbowmen on hold position and hold formation, one can take Fire at will off, and, with a good grip on timing and aim times, fire an ordered volley at the Kats at an incredibly close distance. Then, you will have only a few seconds to spare before the Kats start charging again, so in this time you should have units of your own cavalry or anti-cav attack infantry such as Halberdiers charge in and beat up the cavalry.

You will need to time the volley perfectly. This requires knowing whether the bolts are loaded or not, and when the group will fire. These things I have yet to learn.

You could also go get some Camel troops. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[kataphraktoi]

[QUOTE]Hmm...kataphroktoi, are you Greek by any chance? I am which is why i play Byzantines alot and crush the filthy Turks.[QUOTE]

No I'm not Greek but I'm a Byzantinophile, I have a great interest in the Byzantine military system especially the Kataphraktoi and the Klibanophori(Clibanarius....)

I have tweaked with the kataphraktoi and now I get a missile shock trooper which is really what a real kataphract type unit is anyway if judging from the late Roman, Parthian and Sassanid models.

So whenever I defend, I stick my Kats on a hill, they fire arrows first then charge down the hill leaving a few flat olives on the hillside. Modding is great

However though a non-hellene I share certain sentiments with Greeks, you know what I mean.