The Mongols were easy dealt with Polish

[The Shaman King]

I was playing a game with Polish and controlled all Europe east of Venice.

When the mongols appeared it was a easy campaing to ban them from Europe. It took four moves for me.

Ofcourse it is easy when you know the date http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I moved enough troops to meet them. Lined up in Kiev to Muscovy and a few defence battles and then attack and kill the Khan. Peace of cake. But it can bee tricky with others when you can't go up and meet them with power.

[Brutal DLX]

Autoresolve ?

Anyway, it's not too ahrd dealign with them, I agree, but only if you know when they are coming... if not, you will lose some provinces for sure. That is, if you have territories in that region. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Monsta]

Easy to deal with...hmmm yet another historical fact out the window..only thing to stop the people of the Steppes was lack of grazing areas (oh and the odd storm...but they were mainly Corean and Chinese so expendable).

The bones predict you should venture on line and find a challenge rather than hurting the AI anymore.

The Cagan has spoken (again)

[oblivious maximus]

Odd storm? Oh come on,you know they got sliced and diced by samurai before they got a real foot on the island(reason why they were hiding on boats)and if they even did with horses, those japanese hills would have caused more problems than lack of grazing areas.

oblivious has spoken(for the first time actually http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif )

[Hosakawa Tito]

Pleased to meet you Shaman King. I hope to see you around the EH. Fill us in on your strategy for dealing with the Horde.

[The Shaman King]

Hello All

I think you already know that Kiev - Muscovy line is bridge crossings thats were I was able to stop them and kill the Khan.

And with no Khan around it was like butchering sleeping Cattle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

But it is a good point if I would'nt know that they were coming they would have rode all the way to Poland and the Balkans.

Their heavy cavalry R not that awesome. I had Chivalric Knights to put against them. I had two fine Generals. The Master of the Kings Horse (or what ever) and the Constable in that area. Just by change http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I have to admit that in the first victory it was near that I lost. But in the end I had killed over 10,000 of them on four turns.

[Brutal DLX]

Quote[/b] (Wolf Monsta Cagan @ Feb. 04 2003,15:34)]Easy to deal with...hmmm yet another historical fact out the window..only thing to stop the people of the Steppes was lack of grazing areas (oh and the odd storm...but they were mainly Corean and Chinese so expendable).

The bones predict you should venture on line and find a challenge rather than hurting the AI anymore.

The Cagan has spoken (again)
Any army can be beaten. The Mongol army was great. As was the horde of the Huns. But they were beaten too, in epic battle nonetheless and their remains were scattered.
Remember that, shaman, before you ask your bones.

[Monsta]

Beaten by whom?

Mamlukes?...debatable subject if thats your reference...Monsta will let you tell the defeat than we can look deeper into it.

As for the Japanese chopping the Mongols to bits...we maybe there was the odd on ship scuffle....and as said before most we Chinese and Corean...no major battle with a Mongol force took place...the Cagan agrees with your words about hills...hence the heavy use of lesser soldiers (Chinese and Corean).

[oblivious maximus]

I dont think Chinese infantry would like being called lesser,but I must say.. this cagan does indeed seem wise.

[Brutal DLX]

The Huns were beaten on the Catalaunian Fields by the joint armies of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Visigoths, the Ostrogoths changed sides during the battle and sided with their kinsmen, so the numbers were about equal on both sides.
Armies like the Huns or Mongols are nothing without a great and adept leader. No leader or a weak one, they will lose.
In that battle I mentioned, they were beaten fair and square.
As for the Mongols, it will be a battle of a sword versus a whetstone. They will get sharper but will ultimately break.
Where are they nowadays? Hm?

[Monsta]

Quote[/b] ]Armies like the Huns or Mongols are nothing without a great and adept leader. No leader or a weak one, they will lose.


They will or did?...the Hun are your example but Monsta said Mongol...and isnt you statement plain and simple..is it not like saying..with air one cannot breath?


Quote[/b] ]As for the Mongols, it will be a battle of a sword versus a whetstone. They will get sharper but will ultimately break.


and your example for this is?


Quote[/b] ]
Where are they nowadays? Hm?


Indeed and where is the mighty Roman Empire or for that matter the British Empire?

If you look closely at China you will see that their history changed slightly..and they become led by whom?..yes the Mongols..so to a great degree they are now still under Mongolian rule (barring communism).

But the issue was battle...dcan you tell me any army that was defeated less than the Mongols?....and do not say Roman as Monsta is aware you should know better.

Answer me this...who was the greatest general of all time? Rommel?..Napoleone?..Patton?....Motors?

Of the named Generals above (apart from the mighty Motors) tell me who they studied to make them so great.?

Only one man conquered Russia..only one nation planned campaigns in both eastern Europe and Asia and won the day.

Tell me what was one of the reasons for the great ability of the German army to conquer Europe (and a large chunk of Russia)in such a short time (in a military sense.although we can debate politics if you wish)...was it the now famed Blitz Krieg?...Lightning War...and tell me who did they study to gain this knowledge/tactical style?

Rome the largest Empire?...
Quote[/b] ]hm? as you might say Brutal DX.

Admin please dont view this a flame debate ..but more closer to an adult chat (hopefully) it can continue.

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] ]Indeed and where is the mighty Roman Empire or for that matter the British Empire?


They may not exist anymore, but they made an impact physically and culturally on the areas of their empires. The Mongols conquered the largest empire, but what do they have to show for it? Where can we see the legacy of the Mongol empire today? Conquest isn't everything.

Also, I thought the Germans studied the Brit Liddle Hart(?) when developing their blitzkrieg tactics.

[Tyrac]

As to where is the British Empire....I think we are holding this little debate in English. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Monsta]

Gregoshi the talk was about battle...and the argument was about the apparent 'ease' it was to beat the Mongols...in battle

but you point about building is noted although a very 'western' about what is a great empire... hence why people say things like (like the fella from CA who gave interview for magazine about TW Roman)Rome was the largest etc.... it was the culture of the people..they had no real use for building great bridges or whatever....although they practised religous tolerance...now show me a nation even today who can boast that

Tyrac...and what do you know about English? if indeed you are from where your ID suggests

And on a language point Tyrac....Monsta is sure more people speak 'chinese' and we have already established that the Mongols in some respect are still the rulers of the country....put that in ya pipe and smoke it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Brutal DLX]

We'll take it slow, one by one.

In my initial post I was actually referring to the Huns, who were beaten in that battle I told you about in the next post.
Now, I don't want to enfeeble the Mongols, I know they had tough warriors in their ranks. I admit I don't know any battle where they lost utterly, but I am not such a big expert in that resort, although I know the Koreans gave them trouble for a long time, until the Korean people toppled the ruling dynasty and the new rulers chose to become tributary allies to the Mongols.
The point I am making is a rather general one, ie. I am linking the Mongols to the Huns, because they are really alike, both in place of origin and army makeup. I went on to show you that those were beaten utterly in the end, and just because the Mongols didn't lose big battles that I know of doesn't mean they wouldn't have lost in a big way if they went on with their conquest. Unfortunately they raher faded away in time, as all great empires do, but history and common sense is with me if I say that they would have lost their share of battles.

Now, one final point about my remarks about Mongols needing a strong leader. I didn't express myself clearly on that, so I will rephrase. I meant to say the Mongols depended much more on one single person than other empires. A strong central authority is needed due to the size of even their original homelands. Feudal structure can bear the loss of a ruler (or having an incompetent one) with much less trouble than the Mongols. I think there are enough examples of that.

Finally, the comparisons to German warfare as well as China are a bit off topic in my opinion, but I'll give some remarks:

Surely the idea of taking advantage of highly mobile units was a key to modern warfare, and surely Mongol tactics played a part in it, as well as the the plain and simple idea that motorized units show their purpose readily to a skilled analyst or strategist. And thoroughness when studying and planning has always been inherent to German culture.
Asian people are different than we are, yes, the Mongols gave China greater glory than ever, but in the end China assembled the Mongol virtues of running a state and made them their own. That also plays into the metaphor given to you about the sword and whetstone...

You may conquer the world, but you cannot keep it.

PS: Ease of defeating them in battle, that was referring to the MTW SP campaign ONLY, we weren't talking about real life, until you brought up the notion of invincible Mongols, which compelled me to reply in the first place. I hope this is clear now.

[oblivious maximus]

Brutal,the Huns were of Turkic origin not Mongolian and their army at the Catalaunian Fields was not of typical steppe style because those tactics dont work on hilly terrain.Also Aetius` Roman Army wasn`t exactly eastern.

Yes,I would hardly compare the empires of one that flourished and defended itself for hundreds of years to one that raped,pilaged,turned back the clock and was gone as fast as it came.
Most Chinese today still consider themselves tied to the Han,which btw knew how to handle the army of the steppe very well instead of the weak one during the Horde.

Please Oh Wise One,let`s not make personal attacks like that made on Tyrac.

Are you getting this Shaman ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Monsta]

I agree with alot of what Brutal has said but your 'p.s' words must be reviewed-


Quote[/b] ]
Ease of defeating them in battle, that was referring to the MTW SP campaign ONLY, we weren't talking about real life,

I know and I did not state you were or he was even..it was a comment meant in relation to the growing jistorical faults within Total War...maybe I should have explined that better...but non the less a nice little bit of banter to make this forum wake up a little.


Quote[/b] ]
until you brought up the notion of invincible Mongols,

Well we still didnt find the battle where the Mongols got a beating did we And that was my original point..apart from problems relating to occupation or consolidation of regions...it would take a lot of searching to find them 2nd best in an battle...but I am willing to listen as I am sure somebody here knows something...

No offence intended but your theories are often conjecture..but it has been interesting.

I hope this is clear now...as a Brutal once said..


Slow down Maximus...


Quote[/b] ]
Huns were of Turkic origin not Mongolian

but you will see if you seek..that the Turks originate from the same region as the Mongols...so nil point for Max..1 point for Brutal


Quote[/b] ]
Yes,I would hardly compare the empires of one that flourished and defended itself for hundreds of years to one that raped,pilaged,turned back the clock and was gone as fast as it came.


So an empire such a Rome that was built on slavery never raped..nor pillaged?...and again if we look close at this you will find that although diluted by local blood the majority of the once Mongol claimed regions had a direct blood line in their leadership for hundreds of years...nil point again...


Quote[/b] ]
instead of the weak one during the Horde


Of course they were weak...does that include ever other nation during that time period who fell to the Mongol Ordu (Horde if you like)


Quote[/b] ]
Please Oh Wise One

How can I help?


Quote[/b] ]
let`s not make personal attacks


were WE going to?


Quote[/b] ]
like that made on Tyrac


It was humour..although maybe one of those lovely pictured should have been used to help you understand this...excuse my oversight on this matter.


Quote[/b] ]
Are you getting this Shaman ?


Indeed but you must now go away and read some more books... and come back because it is nice for an old man to have such lovely visitor..but keep trying anyway ..oh yes nearly forgot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif ...any better now?

[oblivious maximus]

When I said Let`s not make personal attacks,maybe I should have done this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The Huns were believed to be from the Xiong Nu,regardless they didn`t use tactics or a fighting style from the steppes in that battle and in my book ,this gets no points.
My point on Rome is that we still see influence today from them,in contrast from the Mongols we see squat.They came a millenia later.

They impress you very much,me too but they were not invincible.It took them 24 years to beat the Jin,2 years to take Beijing and they never took the capitol Kaifeng,this isn`t blitzkrieg.Dia`o yu with a population of 175,000 held off a Mongol force of 300,000.They almost always used overwhelming numbers.They lost small battles in Burma and with Vietnamese and got hammerd at the battles of Jalut,Hims,Parwan...no undefeated here.

Why do you like these savages? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Lechev]

If you look closely at China you will see that their history changed slightly..and they become led by whom?..yes the Mongols..so to a great degree they are now still under Mongolian rule (barring communism).





Hi Monsta Cagan,

I am rather interested in your statement of the chinese still under Mongolian rule. I had attached here an address site. Kindly take note that the rule of the Mongols is the one of the most short-lived dynasty in China.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/CHEMPIRE/YUAN.HTM[B]

Btw, I am a Chinese from SE Asia and I kinda take offence that Chinese/Korean makes lesser soldiers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

If there is a need to role play thats okay with me, but kindly be sensitive enough as this is an international Forum and is access by people all over the world. Thank you in advance for your kind understandings.

[Gregoshi]

We are getting rather close to the brink Ladies and Gentlemen There is a nice discussion going on here, but it is getting obscured by petty sniping. I suggest you use the emoticons if you are attempting humour or any of the other emotions represented by them. Those cute little things are your body language - a major component in communications. That devilish grin you are making while typing is not visible to the reader unless you put it there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Let the enlightenment resume.

[Magyar Khan]

since when there is a shaman king?

[Brutal DLX]

Wow, as Gregoshi said, a lot of nitpicking and sniping. And I think I haven't posted in one topic so often before (other than my own where I was talking to myself a lot since nobody knew an answer to my question..)

Anyway, just some minor replies..

oblivious maximus, of course it was Aetius, I beg your pardon, my mistake. But that was about the last hurrah for the Western Roman army. As for the Hun's origin, I think they pretty much originated from the inner-Asiatic steppes, the Turks weren't in existance then, the Magyars came to Hungary from Asia Minor, maybe you are confusing the two...

As for the army makeup, if you think about the whole matter a little it will strike you that it is impossible for both the Huns and the Mongols to lead such huge campaigns without replacing fallen warriors with local soldiers. Sure, their number was huge, as they weren't called The Horde for nothing, but it was impossible for just about anyone to have purely native armies on two fronts on such a large scale, do you have an idea how big Eurasia is ?? I guess you do.
So the point I want to make is that sooner or later you will always face mixed soldiery in battle, as on the Catalaunian Fields.

Furthermore, I agree with Lechev a lot. Unless you are a sinologist or Chinese yourself with historical knowledge, it is extremely bold to make sweeping statements about such a complex culture with its long history...

And lastly, Cagan, we didn't find the battle, yes, but we did bring up a theory which you would be hard pressed to disprove. We see that the Mongol Empire has faded away rather than going down in one famous last battle, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been possible. Ok?
And for the historical faults in MTW, yes, I agree there are some, but some of them are intentional as it is needed for the gameplay. For example, if the Golden Horde spawns in with historical numbers, then you can end your SP campaign right there. Other things like the power of horse archers, it can be modded to anyone's liking. Also take note that unlike STW, not all units are of the same size. Horse archers have 20 men less on default setting than they do in Shogun, hence it is logical that they kill less per volley... Also many units use shields and more armour than infantry in shogun. Just two examples.

Oh, and it is a nice tautololgy to say my theories are conjecture. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I like it.

[Monsta]

Quote[/b] ]
Btw, I am a Chinese from SE Asia and I kinda take offence that Chinese/Korean makes lesser soldiers


In comparison to the Mongol troops of the era they were... please do not take this as offence... but just a fact of history.. it isnt to say they were a lesser people... just not as good as the Mongol in terms of battle.


Quote[/b] ]
They almost always used overwhelming numbers


This is also losing you points Max.. and reminds Monsta of the Cold War syndrome... where historians for political reasons always recorded the Russians winning battles against the Germans in WW2 just because of vast numbers.. a Mongol force was never that large either.... due partially to the small population of the nation... which reminds us all of just how amazing their acheivments were.

so no more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
let try and keep it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
or Monsta will also get http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
and we will all get a ban http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
it has been intersting (even the conjecture)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Look a Mongol death grip on SEAsia http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[oblivious maximus]

Brutal, i was refering to Turkic peoples,the sub-race for lack of a better term not people from Turkey.There have been Turkic people in Central Asia for thousands of years.

The Mongols were numberless,they incorporated many tribes not just from Mongolia.That i guess is irrelevant,the Mongol defeats was the objective.
Im curious about this Cold War Syndrome,the Easter Front is my favorite time in history.I would like to ask you to site some battles which outcomes were altered for political reason but this forum isn`t the place.In the end,didn`t the soviets overcome them with numbers?

It is funny because there is no reason to

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif ,we both agree your people were a juggernaut not to be messed with.Btw, can you cast spells on people?

[Monsta]

This forum topic became 'enchanted' after my shamanistic touch was added..so you never know...

to clarify....the statement about the Cold War..it was a general statement concerning the 'typical' theory often used by historians et al to explain the 'only' reasons the Russians beat the Germans.

Alot of it is driven by the 'the winner writes the history' type syndrome.

The western alliance was known to question German officers about Russian tactics during the war...just incase Mr Patton got his way and they tried to carry on to Moscow...therefore should we be shocked by an element of propaganda that is now only just about moving away..

The vast size of Russia..the weather and of course men and materials did their part...but the fact that later in the war the equipment (as in quality) and tactical value of the Russian was as important.

Remember it took a while to get the army into shape after Stalin got busy with his purges..(bloomin nut case wasnt he)

But do not always focus on the (often)over used historical 'fact'..it often is a case of lazy historian who wrote it..a re-hash of the same old ideas..

not sure of your qualification in this matter..but my sources are highly valued...so next time the book states 'vast numbers' were the reason..Also look at Hitler and his mistakes not using more men to take oil fields in the south..and lose most of his army at Stalingrad..many many views you need to open up too...and i am sure you have.or will http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[oblivious maximus]

I am not or haven`t been focused on over used numbers and i really don`t know where you are going with this.
The West and Russia more or less both agree on the high amount of soviet forces used,the West may think that some are conservative but they agree.No conspiracy here.
The T-34 did its job well but 12 million soviets died,the kill to death ratio is incredible so who can deny German soldiers were superior.

Monsta, i`m starting to think that you believe Jenghis himself with his sons and a few hunters alone created their empire. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] (oblivious maximus @ Feb. 06 2003,22:44)]Monsta, i`m starting to think that you believe Jenghis himself with his sons and a few hunters alone created their empire. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Well, that and a few T-34s... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Monsta]

The T-34 played a minor role in the Mongol army...but the shoch factor was unbelievable...they say the Elephant caused a stir..imagine if 15 looney Mongols had driven through the Great Wall of Chine in a tank http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[oblivious maximus]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

The Chinese didn't even have long bows to counter the T-34s either. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif