Mongol Heavy Cavalry bug?

[Puzz3D]

I think there is a problem with the effectiveness of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. I just engaged 3 ai controlled Japanese HC with 1 Mongol HC on green (normal difficulty) and defeated them taking 180 heads and losing 38. This is way too effective for a unit with a 4/4 att/def rating. The Japanese HC are 2/6. The MHC and JHC units should be about equal. The Mongol HC fight more like they are getting their +6 charge bonus continually applied. They fight like a 10/4 unit.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[ShadowKill]

yep i agree i am taking almost 200+ heads with every unit of MHC i bring into battle

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Clan Shades
come by and give us a visit (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)
ShadeLord Shiba a member of clan shades

[Magyar Khan]

hmmm u know how hard it was to convince the developers of downgrading monks/muskets, it never happend. u think teh hcav will be downgraded? eventually we will limit it in games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif(

[Algesan]

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
I think there is a problem with the effectiveness of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry. I just engaged 3 ai controlled Japanese HC with 1 Mongol HC on green (normal difficulty) and defeated them taking 180 heads and losing 38. This is way too effective for a unit with a 4/4 att/def rating. The Japanese HC are 2/6. The MHC and JHC units should be about equal. The Mongol HC fight more like they are getting their +6 charge bonus continually applied. They fight like a 10/4 unit.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~ [/QUOTE]


Puzz, I think you might have it. The MHC (and MLC) are so freaking aggressive they may be on charge mode almost all the time in the middle of a fight. I'm used to having to maintain pursuit with Japanese units, but I put the Mongols close and they take off after everything. The downside is that if I have them charging by a fight to get at a rear area unit, they will tend to stop to play....

[Lord Aeon]

Well, if you look at it from the perspective of preserving historical accuracy, the Mongol heavy cavalry WAS one of the most devastating military units of its class.

I know that this may cause problems with online play, but there are other units that are effective... it seems to me that engaging the infamous Mongol heavy cavalry head on might not be a good idea if all you have is JHC. You might want to try a greater mix of units, such as Cavalry archers for a hit and run, or yari cavalry for flanking. Battlefield ninja are really awesome (although i still don't know whether or not you can use them against the Mongols). Counter power with speed and range, and so forth...

Anyway, i don't propose to tell you people what you should and shouldn't do, or what would work and what wouldn't. But i think it's still a *tad* too early to be whining about balance. I don't think that the units have really been evaluated extensively with respect to all their changes in effectiveness. That and, like i said, the MHC is *supposed* to be the best HC unit on the field.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Magyar Khan]

hmm it wasnt the mongol hcav what was devastating compared to other hcav

i even dont think 100 knights would lose bigtime against 100 hcav mongols

it was the tactics, the horsed archers and discipline that gave the edge. not the mongol hcav. the hcav was mainly used to clean things up...

[Algesan]

When you say "clean up", how does that lessen the effectiveness of the troops?

Almost every elite force in history is held back to the last minute, thereby maintaining the veteran status of the troops. Napoleon's Old Guard and Ceasar's 10th Legion are two such units that come to mind.

The problem that will come up in MI is in the online battles. Playing the campaign, it looks like you get just a few of the MHC, so you tend to preserve them for final shock action and pursuit. After all, 3xH2 YS will beat a H2 MHC hands down in a fight. They can be destroyed.

The MLC are more frightening to me. The only thing that saved 5xH2 YS in three fights against 2xH2 MLC was the rout bug. Invariably, by the AI sends all but one YS after one MLC. The second MLC skirmishes until out of arrows and handily kills the remnants of its YS. About the time the MLC with the horde after it runs out of arrows, it routs off the field without being able to be rallied, despite having no casualties. Otherwise, you simply split the MLC, have the YS fixate on the one that charges them and hit the same unit in the rear with the second MLC. The YS will rout and then you slaughter them in the pursuit.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

perhaps trapping the mongol unit wth yaricav and stporming it with spears will help

[Erado San]

I Agree Magy,

Let's first try some tactics for a while and then come up with some good arguments to present a case to CA/EA.

I think this could well be the subject of Question Time IV in 2-4 weeks.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

aaaaaaaaaarghhhhhh another question time? we should change the way we do that, for me the former ones and their outcome were unsatisfying...

[Erado San]

It's the only way so far a collected set of requests have come through and most of the issues have been dealt with some way.

It is easy enough for you to say 'this is what WE want' but how do YOU know that YOUR opinion is OUR opinion.

The QT that I have in mind will collect the opinions of everybody interested enough to submit their opinions. They will be presented and then it's up to CA to use it or not.

If you think you know how to get through better than this then let me know and I'll be happy to work with you on it.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i think the solution must be found in teh ype of questions and how they are stated. as i remember from the former ones most hardcore onliners didnt recognise a part of teh questions and the answers ca ea gave them.

i justw anna ask for a smart way to do it to confront ea ca with themselves and not being able to outmove us all with their answers.

[Roman Totale XVII]

The Mongol Heavy Cavalry are WAY too fast and the MLC have far too much defensive protection in-game. This is true whether looking from a game balance perspective or that of 'historical accuracy'.

MHC were indeed very well armored and armed. You could in fact class them as 'extra-heavy' in that not only were they protected almost head to foot but the 'horse' often had caparison armor too. I say 'horse' in parenthesis because the Mongols rode the famous Mongol pony of under 14 hands. Stout and hardy they may have been but they possessed no supernatural powers and could not break laws of physics. They were not as fast as European warhorses. Mongol lamellar armor was heavy in terms of protection AND weight (one does not always follow the other - it was a question of design). Not nearly as weighty as plate armor but still a major encumbrance. Their max speed would be a swift canter.

MLC should be the fastest because they wore little or no armor at all - why the game gives them better defence than Jap Cav Archers beats me. Also the MLC were superb archers but should have no special bonus over JCA in hand-to-hand that I can see...in fact 13thC JCA were superb archers too. About the only distinction between the two was the far greater unit discipline and tactics of the Mongols.

[RageFury]

Well i made up a typical 6k army for the japanese.

Hev cav Gen
6 x Yari Sam
4 x Nods
3 x X-Bows
Nagi Cav
Yari Cav
Kensai

(all honour 2. No upgrades)

then i played with a mongol army of ..

8 Mongol Heavy Cav

(all honour 2. No upgrades)

Now cos we all know how dumb the AI is i used no tactics at all. I merely charged my mongols straight at the Jap army.

i won.

Not one of my units lost more than half its men and i basically wiped out the Japanese army.

Work that one out.

-Fury

[This message has been edited by RageFury (edited 08-12-2001).]

[Lord Aeon]

Well, i would say that you won because:

1. You only had xbowmen as missile units (eveb at honor 2, they aren't very good)

2. You're charging with the best unit type, hands down, of the time period

3. The way to use heavy cavalry most effectively is to charge with them

4. You're playing against the CPU, and it doesn't know how to defend against a charge like a human does

5. The CPU probably didn't take advantage of terrain... simply pulling back into the woods would have severely weakened your advantage

6. There were no other weather effects on the field to hamper your heavy cavalry, such as snow, rain, etc.

So basically all the conditions were optimal - weather, you're charging into non-cavalry units, crappy AI defense, etc. - for you to win.

What i think you should "work out" first is whether the attack could have been countered at all. Even when you factor out the weather, MHC still aren't so terribly powerful that they should wipe you out as Japanese. I suggest that you play the same game as Japanese and see what comes of it.

But then again, that's just my opinion... i could be wrong.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Lord Aeon]

Also, i would just like to add that for those people who are playing the Mongol campaign and finding it easy to win at first (as Mongols), you're not taking into account that Japanese get to build structures, upgrade unit capabilities, retrain units, etc. as time progresses in the campaign.

Seems to me that the campaign will probably get more difficult.

Once again, i could be wrong.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[MagyarKhans Cham]

6000 koku spears beat 6000 koku mongol hcav , i etsted thsi both ways so there must be a solution eventually but a vg player against a vg player i think the mongol will win easy...

[DragonCat]

Well there is a break in the online action, so thought I'd read through the threads. Here is my impression of the mongols online.

They are good to be sure- however I have both beaten them and have lost with them.

There are definite strategies. I'm not ready to say broken yet, but you have to go with new ideas, or you will lose to them.

I only wish you could play mongols vs mongols online, what were they thinking? That would be very interesting as well.

Anyways, I'm not ready to give my strategies away, and there are certainly others out there. For example, I can't get the thunderbombers to be worth anything, but I've had my position blown away by opponents using them - go figure.

And Maggy, the cavalry is SOOO much more fun to play now. Too bad Japanese cav vs Mongol cavalry has little chance.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[RageFury]

I have just been playing a little more offline..just playing about with various units etc..

And it seems to me that this overwhleming strentgh of Mongol cav is actually intened. the developers seem to have gone more for Koku to Koku balance rather than unit to unit..

if this is the case it makes the game more difficult and fun. U have to decide when and where to spend ur money depending on wot enemy u are facing. I will write out a list of wot beats wot and costs later on.

-Fury

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i would go for a unit by unit balancing

[BakaGaijin]

It would really be very nice if the Japanese Heavy Cav were upgraded as a counter to the Mongols. They wouldn't be AS powerful, to preserve the Mongol Mystique, but powerful enough to maybe neutralise a group of Mongol Heavy Cav (that is to say, to cause enough losses to the Mongol unit to prevent it from being a powerful influence after the combat) and to eradicate Mongol Light Cav while taking heavy losses. Or can the Nagi Cav do both of those things? I haven't seen them at all yet, so I don't know...

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[NARF]

Oh geez, mongol heavy cav rush, yay. What about morale penalties?

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

can YARI SAMURAI kill MHC???? didi they have a chance???

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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif

[Puzz3D]

Check out my post about editing unit parameters in the editing forum. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000156.html

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Warmaker]

YS can indeed kill MHC like frogs eating flies. The problem is fixating the MHC since they're so freaking fast and well armored.

As far as any Japanese Cav is concerned, none of them can touch MHC head on. The trick with CA is useless since they will be quickly caught and chopped up by MHC and even MLC.

You're going to have to be creative. The MHC for all it's power is only worth 600koku...

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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

You're going to have to be creative, says Warmaker. GOOD!!!!!

Looking for new solutions, Creativity, the rules haves changed,sounds fun, finally a challenge for you very good players on MP, play as the japanese and keep us in touch of your findings!!!!!

[MagyarKhans Cham]

a 600 koku spear unit will beat them with ease

[Satake]

If it can catch up with it.. And it is rediculous to have to have a contigent of spearmen just in case the enemy has MHC... but if you don't , you die

[Lord Aeon]

The trick just be not to try and chase them around. Just be careful not to let them flank you, and i think you'll be ok.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Swoosh So]

Hmm i dont see the point of this an honor1 ys with weapon and armour upgrade x3 costs 450 and kills mongol cav easy, so if a unit 150 koku less can beat it its hardly a bug and my tests werent even with ys on hold was a head on charge by both units which left ys with 30-40 men mongols none, satake if u fight mongols of course u will bring spearmen thats only natural dident we all expect that, nothings changed if u were going to fight a mostly cav army in the last shogun u would bring a good few spears

Swoooooooooooooooshooooooowl

[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 08-14-2001).]

[Algesan]

Quote Originally posted by Satake:
If it can catch up with it.. And it is rediculous to have to have a contigent of spearmen just in case the enemy has MHC... but if you don't , you die[/QUOTE]

Satake, you have just made the best case for the era split and inability to have mixed Jap/Mong armies in online play.

Are you going to play against Mongols? Pick defense and bring your spears and turtle up in the hills/woods. If not, go out and manuver. One thing you cannot do fighting Mongols is go out and fight them, they conquered half the world against peoples that did that.

[Satake]

Whehehhe. I feel being put in my place for being a Mongol Invasion newby http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

geez http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[Morpheus Akechi]

Are u guys still not forgetting that as magy said, the Mongol Hordes were not Renound for their heavy cav it was the cav archers. So ithink that mongol heav cav should not be as powerful as jap hc they should be pretty much even and tactics should be used with them not just "Charge."

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Fight going down hill, not up :)(:

[Obake]

I'm assuming that many of you that already have the game have been either playing online or using custom battles to practice for playing online.

Speaking for myself, I've completed the Japanese side of the Mongol campaign and am about half-way through the Mongol portion and there are some interesting observations.

First and foremost, the Mongols do not get any type of weapon or armor bonuses in the campaign. They are powerful enough without them. The Japanese on the other hand do. I found while playing as the Samurai that I would get my rear chased off the map by the Mongols until I was able to get at least 1/1 in upgrades and would be most effective with 2/2. It was at that point that I was able to go on the offensive against the Mongols (who are at 0/0 remember).

This point was rammed home during the Mongol portion of the campaign. The only units that have given me the slightest bit of trouble are those that are upgraded. Unfortunately on normal, the AI is not wisely spending its koku on upgrading the provinces as fast as I had hoped and I am having a field day taking out infrastructure now that I have broken out into central Honshu. I don't expect the campaign to last much longer as my koku amounts continue to increase from pillaging while the samurai lose more and more infrastructure.

My point is that in the campaign, the Mongols don't get any upgrades other than to honor while the Samurai do. If we adopt this policy for online play as well, we will automatically balance the armies!

Just a thought

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Obake

I warned you, but did you listen? Ohh, no...it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it?

[Algesan]

Obake,
After a little messing around on Expert using only AutoCalc as the Mongol, I would suggest breaking out _immediately_ and playing nomad. Hojo can either try to chase you down or bottle up the rest of you. If he goes for the bottle up, you settle down and start breaking the peasants, err, securing the loyalty of your rear area and wait. You are tying up nice fat armies that could be giving your guerillas trouble. In the meantime the rear area group(s) keeps on whacking away at that infrastructure and getting nice chunks of loot for the Khan. BTW, never defend against a peasant/rebel uprising. Let them take the place, then when you do toast them down, you get paid for doing it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Two last posts are worth a bump

[TakeshidaSo]

Mongol armies have been described as usually 40% Heavy Cav. Their Heavy Cav is described as horse armored as well, and so would be considered as Extra-Heavy under the miniature tabletop gaming army-list rules. They are also described as Lance armed and so would have a spear bonus vs. Jap Cav. They also have a higher morale rating. I cant see how the disparities that have been described come as any great surprise. The consensus all along has been that stronger cavalry and more effective cav archers would be the most desired change to the STW game, and it appears that what was asked for has now been granted. I may possibly complain about something in the future, after a reasonable period of allowing myself to be happy first, but then again, I may not.

[Puzz3D]

Takeshida,

The MHC do have lances in the game. Since I raised the question about possible MHC bug, I have been able to eliminate charge bonus as the reason MHC are so strong. It does appear that they are intended to be this strong. They annihilate everything except YS.

I think you'll be happy with this new version of the game. I could return it, get my money back and wait for my free copy, and I'm not doing that.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-16-2001).]

[Roman Totale XVII]

TakeshidaSo, are you refering to the Wargame Research Group mini army lists (either standard or DBM)? Contain some useful notes on the composition of the Yuan Chinese/Mongol armies such as invaded Japan. I notice the lists also have the Mongol extra-heavy cavalry armed with bow as well as lance! Perhaps a little too powerful for STW-MI so the bows were left out. Still move far too fast in MI I think...

[MagyarKhans Cham]

well well we keep moving away from the main point here

online play mhcav cost 600 koku jhcav 600 but mhcav is terribly stronger so downgrade some skill a bit and make them more expensiv
perhaps same with mlcav,

BUT the problem is since the battles are processed almost as if "morale off" in the old game hcav can rout units that fast by using their specific tactics like fast flanking....

get the morale thing back and make mongols more expensive,,,

[Roman Totale XVII]

Cham, I agree with the general concept you describe. I love the idea of having a really powerful unit like the MHC - with the appropriate cost to pay. I feel they should be the medieval equivalent of the King Tiger tank on the WW2 battlefield (though not one fitted with some imaginary rocket propulsion http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)

The following sample costs from the WRG mini rules may (or may not!) be of interest to this discussion but illustrate a general point. Note, troop type ratings (weapons, armor, effectiveness etc) differ from MI so can't be taken as direct equivalents. WRG do rules for historical simulations, after all http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Mongol Guard Extra-Heavy Cav, lance and bow - 42pts
Mongol Extra-Heavy Cav, lance and bow - 39pts
Mongol Heavy Cav (no horse armor), lance and bow - 33pts
Mongol Heavy Cav, bow - 27pts
Mongol Light Cav, bow - 14pts
Mongol Light Cav, bow and light armor - 18pts
Japanese Heavy Cav, bow - 21 pts
Japanese Heavy Cav, short lance - 21pts
Japanese Heavy Cav, yari (Sengoku period only) - 27pts
All types assumed to have secondary weapon too (sword, axe, mace etc)

[This message has been edited by Roman Totale XVII (edited 08-15-2001).]

[TakeshidaSo]

Morale issues that have been raised are very troubling. The cost of better armed or armored units, with higher morale, would be more in WRG miniatures, and STW seems to follow that rule. The current settings seem to state all Heavy cavalry types have similar valued armor. If there is good reason to adjust MHC, so that they are more expensive than JHC, because they are lance armed and have higher morale; then the fact that MLC have better armor and higher morale than CA do, would suggest a similarly good reason to adjust their cost. I havent made any other Mongol unit comparisons along these lines, because I cant recall their costs and relative armor\morale ratings at the present time. I would suggest that the community's consensus in regards to what the Mongol units should cost will likely be followed. I just hope that its a broad one.