Parley

[Herodotus]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

I think that the developers of the Total War series should have a look at the old classic game 'Centurion - Defender of Rome' before they start (too late probably) on Rome Total War. Centurion was very similar to the TW series, the map is where you move the troops and once they get there you command them in battle. Although Centurion was very primitive compared to TW, it does have several features which TW has failed to include. I will go through them one at a time with what i feel is most important first.

Parley: In Centurion before battle commenced you would speak with the enemy General, you were presented with an opening statement from the enemy which shows there mood towards Rome, The most usual replies available are Go To War Ultimatum and Withdraw If you pick the right option you may get a positive response and in rare cases you may seal an alliance without bloodshed (although in most cases you must weaken them first). I think this feature would be a great addition to the TW series.

The Games: Another feature of Centurion was the Gladiator fights and Chariot Racing. They both served to break up the long hours of stategy and tactics experienced in the main game with some action, but they also had there own effect on the main game. The Gladiator fights cost alot of money (especially in Rome where you control a gladiator) but they keep the people happy which is important (also especially in Rome). While the Chariot races allow you to make money by betting on yourself (you can increase your odds with bribes, drugs and divine intervention). Such features could be included in RTW, while MTW would have been much better if it had a Jousting touranment.

Population: This would be a tricky one, but i think the system in Centurion was quite good. There were several things you had to keep in mind when keeping a province happy (population wise), firstly the more men in a province the faster the population climbs, secondly the number of men in a province when it rebels is the number of men who will serve in the rebellion. Thirdly a small population will make the province angry (as will a large one). I think this would be a hard feature to implement but it would be great if it could be done.

[Alrowan]

ahh.. centurion is and was a grand game... im about to go locate it again, and see if it works..

i agree though, parley would be a good option... and population.. it strikes me that i can raise about 10k men from a single prvience, and not have them revolt from such a high draft... its baffeling, but interesting

[LRossaLordJimi]

Will be great if this suggestions of diplomatic features will be in Total war series http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Ave

[Gregoshi]

Welcome Herodotus I've this feeling we've met before. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Glad to see your registration problem worked out. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Those are some nice suggestions from the Centurion game.

Parley: This option might mesh well with the pre-battle scouting that's being added with Viking Invasion. I can envision a fourth option: Trickery - attempt to kill or capture enemy general during the parley. This would assume the general is physically present during the parley...which could be an option. Who parleys? General or spokesman. The presents of a general could have greater influence on the parley depending upon his V&Vs.

Games: Interesting idea. I seem to recall someone else brought up the Joust before. It would be a matter of working out cost and benefit to be gained.

Population: I too would like to see more done with population. The happiness effect is very good. I'd also like to see limits on higher unit types so that a larger part of armies are the lower quality/tech units. As is you don't see peasants in your army after the first few years. These limits would make the high quality/tech units much more valuable and have a greater impact on the battles.

Another idea I like that came from other games is the history book or time line for the campaign. It would feature crownings, deaths of kings/princes, major battles, faction eliminations, etc. by year. It would make a nice recap for your campaign.

Good stuff

[cugel]

If CA is going to do anything on these lines, how about diplomacy that actually works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif That would satisfy me

In MTW diplomacy is almost useless (at least playing on expert - I don't know about easy or medium settings):

After the 1st few turns, it's almost impossible to form alliances, get enemy factions to agree to truces (even if it would obviously be in their interest to do so since they're losing badly and the player didn't begin the war); marry their princesses or accept marriage proposals. In short diplomacy is such a waste of time that I don't even bother with it anymore I just assume that the ai will reject everything that I propose anyway, regardless of whether I'm being aggressive or passive, whether I started the war or was the victim of aggression, etc. If you have no provinces in contact with a faction; wipe out a faction (and then it respawns while you don't own the province(s) it respawns in); or if you wipe out a crusade and have no province in contact with a faction -- then peace returns after a time. But you can't get the AI to agree to peace, nor can you get it to accept alliances (though it may propose an alliance on its own). (There are other conditions where peace will return automatically after a time, I just mean that you can't directly achieve peace through diplomacy).

It's obvious that the AI is programmed to reject player proposals almost as a matter of course. I'm sure you've all experienced having a faction reject your proposed alliance only to offer an alliance with you that very turn Or to have it reject a proposed marriage only to have it propose one of it's own, that turn or the next turn. If you reload and run the turn again, you see different diplomatic messages with reasons for rejecting the proposal -- these vary at random and are without meaning (e.g. attack our mutual enemies when the faction in question is not at war with anyone).

Someone recently suggested that building swarms of agents and bombarding an AI faction leader with diplomatic initiatives will eventually achieve a positive response. I playtested this idea with 11 agents making the same proposal for 5 years in a row, with no results. Perhaps there is some low probability of success, but I doubt it (At least I've never seen any evidence for it). I suspect that I was in violation of some protocol for achieving peace (such as having a province in proximity to the enemy AI province - or perhaps a ship in a sea zone off it's coast) that caused the AI to automatically reject every proposal.

It's just stone obvious that CA didn't bother to put much thought or effort into the diplomatic model, and threw it in as an afterthought, without much playtesting

Another thing that always irritates me is that if you go to war with any rebel faction you remain permanantly at war will all rebel factions that are ever created in the game. No possibility of peace that I can see. If you attack Finland and take over the province from rebels, and 50 years later rebels that take over Tunisia they consider you their enemy whether you've done anything to them or not ABSURD I believe this was also a broken feature in Shogun that wasn't fixed for MTW. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[solypsist]

I hear Activision is going to come out with FPS game called Agents of Fortune in which you roleplay an MTW-world-based faction emissary, and have to travel to strange lands and engage in diplomacy, a little assassination and spying. Sort of like the Thief game, but a little more involved in actual conversing with the AI
Unfortunately, rumors have it that you never get past the first mission since you're assassinated yourself relatively early in the game.
But it would be added on to the MTW:Total War game, so that when you send an agent on a mission, it flips over to the FPS mini-game for a few minutes so you get a more hands-on experience with the diplomacy. There was going to yet another add-on called Priest with the same as above but involving holy men, but complaints from various gamers about the mammoth time involved in agent micro-management has stifled its development.

(j/k)

[cugel]

There was going to yet another add-on called Priest with the same as above but involving holy men, but complaints from various gamers about the mammoth time involved in agent micro-management has stifled its development.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif that's a valid point, Solypsist, (you forgot to mention that you probably assassinated yourself, out of boredom) BUT CA could easily have a switch that would turn off the extra diplomacy for those that don't want it.

My only point is that if game features are included, they should work properly No-one (well few anyway) are demanding Civ. level diplomatic options. The options discussed here could easily be implemented without costing too much time management. IN FACT, THE USE OF AGENTS MIGHT BE ELIMINATED ALTOGETHER

Woudn't that be interesting? No Spies or Emissaries or Princesses to manage Just a diplomatic screen where you select options like gather information about province X or propose alliance with faction Y. Why have agent pieces you have to keep track of? Plus, you woundn't have to wait while the AI is moving to watch all those anoying agents moving pointlessly about the map

[Oberiko]

Well, we know(?) from the latest preview that gladiator games are in.

I'm going to assume that if they've got those, then they wouldn't leave out chariot races.

[SmokWawelski]

Quote[/b] ]My only point is that if game features are included, they should work properly No-one (well few anyway) are demanding Civ. level diplomatic options. The options discussed here could easily be implemented without costing too much time management.

I would like to see the level of diplomacy implemented in Civ3. Wouldn't you like to sned spies into provinces to gain info about them versus simply building a watch tower? How about an alliance that actually is worth something, like in Civ3? Maybe the trade relationship or the tribute resuest, like in Civ3? I do not get it why it is so hard for developers to get good ideas from other games to make an uber-game?

I mean, MTW is not ripping Civ, but a diplomacy model just like in Civ3 would be nice to have here...

[Herodotus]

To be successful in diplomacy in MTW depends on a couple of things (from my experience). First your influence compared to that of your enemy, and secondly the valour of the emmisary or priest offering the ceasefire or alliance (priests are better). Princesses work best when they are young.

I like the idea of the V&V's effecting the Parley Gregoshi, It could even determin the words were spoken eg. A brave pious general will deliver an ultimatum as 'bow down before our gods or you will feel their wrath' whereas a regular general would deliver the ultimatum simply as 'surrender or die'.

[Major Robert Dump]

My battlefield diplomacy comes in the form of an axe, a plunger and a jar of peanut butter. That's all I will ever need.

[oblivious maximus]

I absolutely love the parley idea.

I would like to take this opportunity to say,if i can that the only thing that i would like to see is the death of a horseman and his horse seperate.I dont care where they go after they are shot off.

...and maybe wounded on the battlefield. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Plaxx]

Good ideas More diplomacy options (like Civ3 or EU2 even)would be great.

And Centurion was a great game, wasn't it? I was just thinking about it the other day and couldn't remember what it was called, thanks

[eddie0909]

A war needes some blood to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Portuguese Rebel]

Errr we guys that played and remember Centurion are getting old aren't we...lol
But yes it was great for its time... i loved the way they merged battles and coliseum games (gladiators and chariots). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif