Back row of spears

[tgi01]

Well lets imagine this scenario :

You join a unit of spearmen ( much easier to spell than chiv seargeant ) , then you are smart enough to bribe the captain so he puts you in the back row ). So there you stand making phone calls and reading your mail while George in the first and Jack in the second row does all the fighting ) and then someone dressed in plate mail and sitting on a giant warhorse sneaks up upon you and thrusts a lance in your back ....Is this really realistic, and shouldnt something be done about it ... ( at least in multiplay when you see it happening and desperately try and turn a unit )

kind regards

tgi01

[Jeroen Hill]

Imagin this. You are Jack in row 1. An enemy men-at-arms attacks you. You start slashing, hacking and stabbing him. Jim and Daniel, both standing next to you dont do anything. They have the attitude of he attacks you, not us so it's not our bussiness. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kongamato]

Well, the only reason this would be justified would be the fact that the ranks are few enough so that every man, even the rear men, can contribute to the fight up front. Since the rear men are fighting, turning around with a spear and shield and all may be a somewhat cumbersome activity.

Jeroen, the one guy only fights because he is probably in Hold Formation, where the men next to him cannot leave their assigned positions. If you put the soldiers on Engage at Will, they would break formation and help each other.

[tgi01]

What I was trying to say was that in large unit 100 strong and maybe 5 rows deep , the last row even as they are passive wil get slaughtered by anyone attacking from behind
and some of it could be explained by battle noise but not all...

tgi01

[Foreign Devil]

You could think of it as reflecting the psyhcological impact of being hit from the rear. Sure, they may have time to turn around and fight, but then they'd be surrounded, closed in, with no avenue of retreat. It would be very demoralizing.

[tgi01]

Yepp i agree about the impact sometimes ... like when in the middle of a fight and a large cavalry unit charges you ... but as far as I know ( I might be wrong ) the morale impact is the same regardless of what kind of unit hits you from the back.
So I m in the back row fully armoured with a shield and a spear then I notice this dude who ran out of arrows and waving his tiny dagger running at me .. do I get scared ????
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

tgi01

[desdichado]

I think in reality while the rear ranks were not actually fighting they were pushing their comrades in the back to shove the whole formation forward. (I think hoplites practiced this a lot). Put your shield in your mates back and push.

As far as I know most of the fighting was really two formations pushing at each other - not as Hollywood depicts it with indivduals fighting each other in a loose formation. The opening battle scene in Gladiator was particularly galling to watch as Romans didn't slash with their short swords, they stabbed, but I digress.

I do agree with your point and that is why I use the pause button - your units are essentially dumb and you have to make every move for them - even when big armoured men on big armoured warhorses are sneaking up on them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

It also why horsearchers are difficult to use properly. I have watched as they sit and wait to be charged even though they are set to skirmish. Stupid

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (Foreign Devil @ Feb. 21 2003,05:30)]You could think of it as reflecting the psyhcological impact of being hit from the rear. Sure, they may have time to turn around and fight, but then they'd be surrounded, closed in, with no avenue of retreat. It would be very demoralizing.
It reminds me of a story I heard about the celts fighting some Romans back in sometime BC. They were in 2 lines and surrounded so the back row just turned around and kept fighting as though it was all normal. The romans got scared by this insane bravery and ran.

Not sure if it's true but good story anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Bhruic]

Ok, imagine that you're in the back row. The front row is busy fighting, but hey, you're in the back, so you turn around to make sure no one's sneaking up on you. Meanwhile, the front line got butchered. You feel a tap on your shoulder, and hear a voice say Would you please turn around so I can kill you?.

In the middle of a battle, the last thing you want is your units to turn around and put their backs to the enemy. It may work with a rabble, but with formation fighting, it's just asking to get killed.

Bh

[tgi01]

Lets add that it effects every kind of unit the same way ,
gallowglasses and other sword /axe units still never look back. ....

Here am I running with my axe hear a horse behind me but
why bother there is a 50 % chance that hi an ally ....

tgi 01 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Longshanks]

Quote[/b] (desdichado @ Feb. 20 2003,20:27)]As far as I know most of the fighting was really two formations pushing at each other - not as Hollywood depicts it with indivduals fighting each other in a loose formation. The opening battle scene in Gladiator was particularly galling to watch as Romans didn't slash with their short swords, they stabbed, but I digress.


I liked Gladiator, but you are right...it was for the most part Hollywood. The scutum(shield) was as much a weapon as the gladius for the legionary. A legionary was trained to bash the enemy with the scutum, and then thrust the gladius into his opponent's innards while he was slightly off-balance.

None of that was in the movie either.

http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/mil_roman_soldier_shield.htm

[Foreign Devil]

I was under the impression that the gladius was a thrusting weapon, hence the sharp point on the tip.

[BDC]

Yes the Gladius is for thrusting, apparently it was probably the best close combat weapon until the invention of gunpowder. Thrusting does far more damage than slashing, if you get it through the stomach or mouth you kill you opponant instantly unlike slashing which might well let them bleed to death but they can still hit back for a while.

I think in many ways MTW is probably a bit off with the spearmen as I guess spears would break or be discarded, and the soldiers would have fought on with swords or whatever weapon they use.

Hey Longshanks that stuff about the shield was photographed at my local park http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I have been to that museum mentioned I feel so in the action http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[solypsist]

dig this: you're in the back row. You're tired after running back and forth. You want to put your hands on your knees, lean against your spearshaft and breath, but there's too much jostling. The guy next to you can't seem to stand still and his shield keeps banging into your right arm, right above the elbow.
Your heavy helmet is hurting your head, sweat dripping into your eyes; you can hardly see a thing Everyone is yelling and thrashing about, you can't hear anything but the guy next to you hollaring over and over. You peek between the heads of the guys in front of you: is that the enemy? He's that close? Better buck up and get ready, you're probably going to be next...


then the lance hits you from behind.

[tgi01]

Well I do buy the argument about spear units and the need for close formations , and yes phalanx fighting needs that kind of formations too ( hmm some 1 here is really looking forward to RTW ) , but a sword unit shouldnt get that huge morale fall when someone attacks from the back ....



tgi01

[Knight_Yellow]

well lets just get this right IF U BREAK FORMATION UR DEAD.

that was a universal rule, u cant just turn round with a 15 foot stick in ur hand and get stabbing. u need the commander of the unit to give an order so that all of the unit knows wat to do.