M:TW Byzantine & Turkish Strategy

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi I'm new here.
I searched the Main & Entrance Hall for Tipps but found nothing.
I saw many turkish and byz generals in the forum so perhaps someone could be so nice to tell me how to use my units against the AI in SP campaign on hard Level.
Before I played several campaigns as Christian and I also have Shogun Experience.
As Turks in High and Late I have always Problems to win against the Byzs without horrendous casualties, because of their high armor, their cataphracts(?) and varangian(?) guards.
Against these units my Futuwwas and Turkoman Foot are nearly useless. Are they invincible against arrows? (The Shogun Archers were fearfuller)
The Gazi Inf gets panicked. The Ghulams
run away from the Cataphracts. It's hopeless.
If I take the Byzs, I may finish off the Turks, but in Late I really get Problems with the high armoured Christians because I can't produce any Unit to match them.(Swiss is too far away) And what about Byz Infantry. What are they?
(I can read the parchment decription) Are they good for anything http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Concerning the Byzs, I also find irritating to see what happens when I capture a Province and siege a little Fort
because some escaped the battle before.
If I don't take the Province in the next Turn, I'll have to face a loyalist rebellion with more Byz Troops as the whole Empire- Halbardiers- Var Guards-..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
What's your strategy? On the Board and on the Battle Grounds?
Sorry for so many answers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Naagi]

Cant help much here but Ive played the Byz. They can get the pavise arquebelestors which do real good against armored units I believe. The Byz infantry is kinda tricky as they rout really easy if tired or away from general, so find a spot and park em with your general. Varangian Guard are the second best foot unit in the game I believe so they should give a good account of themselves, just protect their flanks. Put some VG in a forest and they will chew up cavalry for dinner, most things beat cav in woods but these really work well. I never made it to late as the Byz, to much of a conquerer and I always start in early period. Id work towards a VG, pronanai cav, pavise arq army with some other stuff to fill in if needed.

Naagi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[R'as al Ghul]

Cool A fast answer
Well, thx Naagi.
Ok, you conquered all before it got too late http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
But if you get there it's the End for producing Var Guards.
Thats the main Problem with the Byzs, as i see it.
By the Way, my Ghazi were eaten by normal Feudal Knights in the woods, so....it does'nt work all the Time.
I still need Help against them.
Thx anyway

[Gregoshi]

Hello R'as al Ghul. Thanks for signing on at the Org.

...that's it. Really. I've no experience with the Byz or the Turks - yet. Sorry. Pathetic, is't it. I just go around waving at people. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif I wouldn't even know which end of the sword to pick up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif But I do have the wave. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif Maybe that is why my armies always waver before they rout. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Hobart]

I'm playing Danes on Normal, early. I've been conquering the Byzantines, but I've had little success when I've been putting vikings up against Byz Infantry, esp when my general is not as goos as theirs. My vikings just take losses, and run. The only way I've been able to beat a Byz infantry unit with vikings is to flank then and hit them in the rear, and even then it takes a while. So unless I have a large numerical advantage, I dont usually win against them.

It was a bit of a shock really: until I met them I was rolling over lots of other units with massed vikings. In order to beat them I had to bring up fuedal sargeants, fuedal man at arms and mounted sargeants, which managed to hold them and beat them much better.

I know I didn't answer your question, but I wanted to say that on Normal, the byz inf are not as wussy as one of the previous posters (sorry, cant see name now I'm in the reply screen&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif said.

Cheers

[DemonArchangel]

HAHAHA R'as al Ghul, you and your pitiful turkish can never win against the might of byzantium, nothing you do can prevent the wrath of the Basil (Caesar, Emperor, whatever...)

j/k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif well anyway, the weaknesses of the byzantines are that their forces lack mobility and that they have no good spear units, so they're vunerable to cavalry (*cough not really, COugh*&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[troymclure]

Heh man, i am by no means an expert in such matters, but my advice is as follows.
Byzantines :- Expand early and expand alot. You can't help but get hammered in late periods cause you lose your mainstay (varangian guard). Beyond that, there's not much you can do, fact is though, their early units are so good that you should be able to get control of a large amount of the map before late period rolls around.
ps:- Byzantine infantry are GOOD, make sure they're in an army with a good general (being the byz, you shouldn't have any problems with that) and send them against pretty much anything besides cavalry and they'll do alright, i tend to use them and spearman as main lines and varangain guard for flank hits. Sometimes though it's byz infantry for flank and VG for line, but tis up to you.
Oks
Turkish :- Kill the byzantium faction early. That should be a priorty, cause you need constantinople. It's a big money earner and could be a nice place to start training Janissary troops. Janissary troops are extremely important for the turks. Initially with them i tend to field lots of spear and cavalry units (some of their unique ones are quite good) but you should really concentrate on making a Janissary troop producing town. Once you've got that build JHI exclusively and go take over the world http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .
Hope this helps, sorry for the long post

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[ShadesWolf]

I have just created a new section on my web site about SP campaigns, the first in on Byzantine. Take a look, I hope it is of some help



Byzantines SP Campaigns Guide (http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/byzanfaction.htm)

[Major Robert Dump]

turks are relatively poor so you have two options for expanding:

1)take out the byzantine early or
2)make war with fellow muslims and march on egypt

Personally, I prefer both at the same time. If you commit most of your forces to the byz engagement you can march on constaninople and send enough troops to hold it afterwards. Once you have that province, use it for your western troop manufacturing and build a quick army in the east out of mercenaries and any troop production provinces you have available...by the 15th year you need to have at least 3 places to build quality troops.

Take the engagement slowly with the egyptians and concentrate on the rich territories. Make use of camels as garrison units, as they are cheap and get a desert bonus.

also, in your early engagements with the BYZ try to capture their nobles and ransom them back. Cut them of and isolate them from Constaninople.

And remember, Turks breed like rabbits so you will have many good horse units by year 25.

Your main enmey will likely end up being the almoheads, and they will probably be huge when you have to vie with them for Egypt. Crusades agaisnt you are a joke since they all have to pass thru the bottleneck at Const. Once u have Const I would not conquer anymore north until you have secured the south up to Grenada.

hope this helps.

[Exile]

Playing the turks vs. Byz - the Byz units have the advantage in a straight on fight. kata will mach over your calvary, as you saw, you have to use speed, tactics and often superior numbers. Same situation vs. high armor Christian troops.

Use Saracen Spearmen to engage Katas, then charge them from the flank/rear with your calvary or Ghazis, etc. Saracens are the staple of the Turk army (at least until you can train Janisaries)

Varangians are a trouble. You have nothing even close to match them until JHI. Employ multiple units against them. One unit to engage, then one or two high attack units with level units to attack from flank/rear. VG will take many of your troops with them, thats just the way it is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif be thankful they're costly and slow to produce. Alternatively, wear them down good with archers.

I use the Turcoman horse extensively when playing the turks in rearly/high. Turcomans can harass and draw out enemy units. A good start to wearing out VG or even to pull VG out of a fight if you can get them chasing your Turcomans. Then you can deal with them after.

I also like the Armenian heavy calvary. They're no match for knights or Kata, but they can do some damage with a charge into the flank of a strong enemy unit that you have engaged with your Saracens.

Otherwise use the great selection of archer units that the Turks have. In the late stages of the game, they are the strongest muslim faction.

[troymclure]

Hi gregoshi, thanks for the hello, and i'll keep an eye out for that other unfortunate brisbanite. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
ps:- I'll remember that wrist thing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi again everybody
Well i am amazed by the number of answers.
Thanks to you all.
I'm going to start the Turkish Campaign in early again
and will see to put the head of this f.. Byz Emperor
on a spear as soon as possible http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I think i have to rework my tacticts to adjust to these troop types. As a Christian i didn't bother to march around the field a lot, but now i think i have to use the mobility a bit more.
I'll tell you how i got along......

[LRossaLordJimi]

Ave R'as
I play campaign in SP with Turkish in late era,it was very good campaign,after few years Byzantine empire was in my head http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif and so i got for my Ottoman Empire Ungary,Poland until my hard disk die and campaign with him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

When i want conquer a province,i put first many alims,this for take much people to my religion,or better for to cause rebellion.
So it's very important destroy Byzantine Empire in early yers of game.
For the units, i think every people have is own way of play,but i like on the turkish Khwarazmian Cavalry and Heavy Jannissery Infantry.The Kataphraktoi are very slow,so you can make skermish with him with Turcoman Horse,so just to take alone from the battle this terrific unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

I have so other tips,but on the sunday morning i can't remember other http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Ave

[kataphraktoi]

Hey R'as Al Ghul

Even though I'm a huge Byzantine player I am aware of Byzantine weaknesses as well, this one weakness are arrows.

True given that Byzantine armies are well armoured the consistent and persistent use of horse archers will eventually destroy them. Slow mobility is their weakness and they'll take horrendous casualties before they reach your troops.

I've had frustrating battles against horse archers, I can't seem to prevent my army from splitting up sometimes and this might be the key. When my infantry are busy chasing the archers they send their heavy cavs into my center with helpless treb archers. Trebs have to hold on till I bring back a stray unit back.

Nowadays. I maintain a missile flank and leave everything covered against the horsearchers. the battle may be slow because of it but victory is the end result.

damn you horsearchers.

never ransom a sultan back or he'll just come back with ten more heirs straight from the harem itself, they never stop

christians are restricted to one wife, muslims can have four hence fourtimes the heirs and their ability to raise huge armies overrunning Europe. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[kaasbris]

I love Biz troops even in late.
Yeah, VG is gone. so what? In real, Bizantine empire was much much weaker than shown in MTW. I doubt any other troop type was also existed duing late period.

Some said Kataphraktoi is too slow, but I think they are very fast & so powerful infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Anyway Biz have Pronoiai Allagion, so why bother?

Even I began game in High, I didn't produce VG, just for nice challenge.

For Biz Infantry, they are so nice all round unit, can deal with most troop type except knights. Very cost-effective and good numbers.

Biz Cavalry is another excellent punch. They are not another Horse archer My BC fought fairly well against Mongol Heavy Cavalry head to head.

But Biz don't have nice pikemen nor fast cavalry. So I usually field a lot of crossbows/trobizond archers with spearmen. This makes Biz a bit defensive.

My army composition is:
1 Kataphraktoi (General)
4 spearmen/Biz Infantry
4 crossbows/Trobizond Archers
2 Horse Archer/Biz Cavalry

Constantinople has a bonus for Kata., Nicaea for Pronoiai Allagion and Trobizond for Trobizond Archers, which are all sweet.

Furthermore, Emperor has good command and capable at field and at home as well.I mean many heirs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[TheLastEuropean]

I think the Turks are just about the best and most fun faction to play in this game. Their unit choices are fantastic. People say they are weak but not really. You have Saracen Inf. and they are equivalent to Chiv. Sargs. only available in the early period - a definite advantage. ALso, Turcoman horse is a very good horse-archer (HA) unit. Armour them and get their valour up to 4 or so and they perform very well.

When I play the Turks I use about 4-6 Turcoman horse in every army. Battle tactics are to leave a nice infantry core on a hill etc. somewhere while the turcoman horse harasses the enemy army on the approach. What happens is 4-6 enemy units split from the group to chase the turcomans leaving a smaller force to attempt the main attack - usually totally unco-ordinated and piecemeal due to the huge confusion caused by the HA. Meanwhile, selective targetting with your HA means you are wearing down the enemys strong units or cavalry etc. etc.

Camels Put a camel unit on each flank and use them like billmen (or something) to stop enemy cavalry flanks (always pulling them back after a successful repulse - due to their slowness they get caught easy&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. They work brilliantly against horses and are a cheap flank-holder in the early stages. They'll hold off Royal Knights no bother

Ghazi - suicide squads guarenteed to take a huge chunk out of any unit even though they'll be annihilated. Muwahid foot - great fast unit that will hold horses for a long time, make sure you get that big charge bonus though.

In the later stages it's even easier with janissaries. Get teching up straight away to get these killer units as quick as possible.

Strat Map: Although a precarious starting position, with a little campaigning quick at the start you can tie your lands off to 1 province North, South and West by pushing to Georgia, Constaninople and er..... that southern province next to egypt. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif That leaves easily defensible borders with only 3 armies. I recommend Egypt first - being a muslim faction they're short on armour and turcoman horse have a field day Plus the crusader provinces are very rich so the income is much preferrable. This means you'll be fighting off crusades aplenty but the valour gains are very useful since before long you'll have a hardcore army of loonies

[ichi]

I spent yesterday playing the Turks online. I seemed to do better in the desert, against less mobile troops. The horse archers can be quite effective, especially w/ high armour/weapons/valour. The heavy cavs charge well.

At lower morale levels I got routed by HRE and French. Probably more a reflection of my skills than the Turks unit qualities.

Take home message: use the HA to harass, stay mobile and pick at the opponent, make him run around. The Turcomans are fast so they wear out/exhaust cav that chases them. Then use speed to overload one part of the enemy line.

I also noticed that after they have shot all of their arrows, the Turk HA are not bad at melee.

ichi

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ Jan. 24 2003,15:51)]Hi I'm new here.
I searched the Main & Entrance Hall for Tipps but found nothing.
Then you obviously didn't go here (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=2273).

The TOC should be the first place anybody looks before asking questions.

[kataphraktoi]

I added a bow with the bow animation to the Kataphraktoi, a genuine Kat uses a bow to keep annoying Turk horse archers away.
Or better yet a Treb Archer
Beats Turcohorsees in range, melee and charge well from my experiences anyway

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Playing as turks, I agree mostly with Exile.

In early, trouble will come from VG and Katas. Use HA a lot (Turco Horse), to get them very tired / exhausted and bring confusion into their army.
Once Katas are tired, pin them down with saracen inf ( a must have) and flank with either Muhawid / Ghazy or Cav (but your cav might be better employed somewhere else) or Camel rather than cav if available.
Once VG are tired... Well, keep bring them down with missile and keep running... And eventually, charge them with your cav/ ghazy and pray. Usually I am happy to sacrifice some ghazy on those. Just don't expect to win immediatly.

Now the tactical trouble is that the Byz army may sit on a hill with some byz inf, some VG, some kat and many Treb archer.
Those Treb are going to kill your HA fast, and as long as those Treb win the day, other units will stay together and won't chase you.
The turk anti treb is the turcoman foot.
If the Byz is heavy on treb, put 2 units of turco foot in loose in front and let the treb loose their missile against the resiliant turco foot.
Once this is done go back to the original HA harassing plan and cut those byz one by one.

turk perfect early army (IMO)

4 Turco Horse Archer
1/2 AHC or Ghulam (nearly identical) with camels option in desert
3 Saracen inf (your main line)
2 Turco Foot archer
2 Ghazy / Futuwwa (ready to flank)
2 Muwahid foot (next to saracen inf in line)

Khwarzamian have tough buiding requirement. May be long before getting them in SP.

On strat map, I would go after the Egyptian first, split their kingdom in parts, and try to bribe the Steppe cav / HA in the north and go for some limited action agains the byz.

Once you are done with Egypt go after constantinople. Egyptian are far more expansionnist than Byz.

Send some emissary in Spain to see how Almo/ Spain is going... You need to keep an eye on this.

When High is getting close get redy for Janissary and then it shall roll.

If you are byz in early, you shall be fine

Louis,

[R'as al Ghul]

Ok, solypsist you got me.
I didn't go there. Because I didn't see it.
As I heard, others also didn't see it.
But as it turned out, there still wasn't said everything
about the issue.
No offense meant though. I understand that it is a Pain in the ass to maintain a website and hear those questions again and again

Best Regards.

Again thx to all and escp. kataphraktoi and TheLastEuropean
who shared their knowledge and helped to manage my troops.

[DemonArchangel]

one last thinggy, use byzantine cavalry, they rule and are underestimated by many. I like to skirmish with them and lure heavy european cavalry out with my byz cavalry, tire the heavy cavs out then move in for the kill or let PA's/Vgs polish them off, and Byz Cavalry can run down horse archers and outfight ghulam cavalry. (they also can run down fleeing units incredibly well) And also, if the byzantine player happens to get steppe cavalry, the turcoman horses are dead. It's really pointless to use spearmen, just use byzantine infantry which screw over AUM's, FMAA, CMAA, militia sergeants,Feudal Sergeants, Chivalric Sergeants, Saracen infantry, Ghazis, Muwahids, Futuwwas, and can 1-1 with Nizaris and Foot Knights. Here's an anti cav. tactic for Byz, the Byz infantry can absorb a cavalry charge, while your Vg's go around the flank or back, utter chaos then ensues and 1100 florin lancers get beaten out by 2 units costing a total of 725 florins. And here's a campaign hint for the Byz, kill thy muslim neighbor...

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

DA,

You are right that Steppe cav or Alan merc are some trouble for turco horse.
But not death. Following the turco horse away from the line can drive the byz fast cav into some trouble themselves.

Byz cav are fine units... But not really against the missile heavy turk They kind of vulnerable to mmissile.
Biz inf is alos fine... All early byz units are fine...

Louis,

[A.Saturnus]

Hi R`as al Ghul, greetings from another stupid german http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif (hey, I can wave too)
and welcom to the forum.

Not much to add to the infos here if not some good Turkish units would be left out. I`m talking of Turcoman inf They are good skirmishers and due to their loose formation not very vulnerable to ranged attacks. But watch their morale
When fighting the Byz you may have problems with Katas, but AHC is so much cheaper and don`t forget that you can build a Master Horse breeder very soon. So you can have v2 AHC in Armenia before they can build Katas. Byz inf can be hard, try to attack them with Ghazi from two sides. Against VGuards you`ll have to accept losses, just try to isolate them and charge them with AHC. Turcoman horse a good, but only slightly superior to normal HA and they need quiet some micro management.
Try to get the Military academy fast. When you have JHI, you`re invincable and your Turks will soon 'fett krass' take over the world

[mario_yepes]

Hey everyone;
I am currently playing the Byz, and they are conquering the map. The Turkish are a charm. If I can be of some help, i have brief tips, if any correct me if I am wrong.
The Byzantines have great generals. There is a website www.roman-empire.com which outlines the best tactics for Byzantines. I have found my flanks hold well taking tips from this site. Against the Byz, well, their main thing I guess would be their inflexible cavalry, watch YOUR flanks, and you will refuse losses. Otherwise good generals mean better morale, bring a large army, and keep in mind they are heavily armored (slow)
The Turks are rightly, hard. Their position allows them to attack Egypt early, and watch rum, and you out to be able to fund your armies. I like Muhawid foot, they fight hard and long. Otherwise the invaluable troop type has to be the Desert archers and Armenian cavalry, they have great attack power, and are cheap. Try to outflank those Byz, and spread them out, outflank, the only key. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[R'as al Ghul]

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Jan. 28 2003,14:25)]Hi R`as al Ghul, greetings from another stupid german http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif (hey, I can wave too)
and welcom to the forum.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Hi A. Saturnus Cool to meet another Kraut (einen belgischen?)
Ja, those JHI really make it. Once you have them - i started early and had them in ca. 1250, soon with gold armour- there's no match for'em.
I take 6-8 of them and pair them up with janissary inf and kawarzmian(?) Cav.
Yesterday they mowed down about 3000 French in Poland without any Reinforcements http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

see you around

[Shahed]

Quote[/b] (R'as al Ghul @ Jan. 24 2003,21:51)]I saw many turkish and byz generals in the forum so perhaps someone could be so nice to tell me how to use my units against the AI in SP campaign on hard Level.
Well here is a general statement:

The Turks do have good units and they can reasonably well kik byzantine butt right into the Aegean.

I usually work fine with some Futuwies, Koolies do reasonably well too. Turcorout foot are not too bad either specially if armored. I'd also recommend producing mucho cav.

hmmm errrr welll i think i better play some turk campaign again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[eddie0909]

i put my aerchers on a hill and my spermen in fornt so when the hourses charge me the spermen take care of that then my hourses charg the remander of the of thair forses whill the aerchers are picking at them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Pablo Sanchez]

The best strategy I know of is to remember what each unit is meant to do, what it is good at.

This allows you to use the proper combinations of units. For example, you remember that your Byzantine infantry is a tough, numerous, and resilient unit of sword infantry. You know that your Kataphraktoi are a slow but hard-ass cavalry unit. So, you use your Byzantines to hold the enemy down while your Kataphraktoi reposition to smash him.

I know less about the Turks. But I do have great respect for the capacity of the Saracen Infantry to take damage.

[Heraclius]

Well, I've had alot of experience as the Byzantines against the Turks and other factions. My strategy for the west is simple, although it sometimes results in high casualties especially for the catholics In western armies the knights usually come first when attacking. It is key to use archers (trebizonds are best) to kill as many knights as possible. Then engage the knights with varangian guards in their front. These will have to for lack of a better spear unit. attack the enemy's infantry with your byzantine infantry. THis should work. BI are an underated unit but when used correctly can rout anything short of heavy cavalry, although their low morale is sometimes a bummer. Any where was I? Right now this is crucial. Bring your katapraktoi and other heavy cavalry around the knights flank and charge. Use you light cavalry (alans, steppe etc) to take out their arhcers and any unites that rout. Soon those pig dos (to quote monty python) will be running with their tails between their legs. This strategy has almost never failed me. Good luck

Au revoir, mes amis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Mr Heraklios know any good primary sources on Emperor Heraclius and his Persian campaigns?

[Heraclius]

Mr Kataphraktoi, a greek expatriate by any chance? Anyway I'm sorry to say I know of no primary sources on Heraclius. I am sure there are many of them however. After all he presided over the biggest up and down in Byzantine history. however, if you are interested in secondary sources and Byzantine history in general I would check out A short History of Byzantium by Sir John Julius Norwich. He is one of the last of the so-called gentlemen-scholars and his book is truly amazing. It is excellently written and very informative. It spans from the rise of Constantine the Great to the fall of Constaninople in 1453. He has a very good chapter or two on Heraclius. Sorry I don't know any primary sources though. Happy hunting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Heraclius]

sorry I bungled your name in that last post I wasn't paying attention to what I was typing and I haven't figured out how to edit a post yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Joined a few days ago. By any chance could anyone tell me how to edit a post? Thanks I'll post this in the entrance hall too.

[Gregoshi]

Heraclius, you can edit your post by clicking on the word edit on the right side of the line containing your name. It is sandwiched between delete and quote.

[kataphraktoi]

No My Heraklios I am no Hellene expat but a simple ordinary Asian whose countless ancestors may have been a vicious Avar raiding the Balkans and laying siege to grand Constantinople.

Yeah John Julius Norwich is an excellent writer, i bought his Byzantium trilogy years ago.

The only primary source is some guy called Theophanes.

[Heraclius]

I asked, Kataphraktoi, because you spelled my name Heraklios, which is the Greek spelling. I will have to check out this Theophanes though. Thank you

[kataphraktoi]

Yo Heraclius check this book out

The Holy Wars of byzantium

by geofrey regan

very nice read

[Heraclius]

I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks. Kataphraktoi I have a question for you. I just noticed your signature and I'm trying to think back to the books I read about Byzantine military history. i know that the elite of the kataphraktoi was called the klibanophorii (i think thats how you spell it). I know for a fact that they were armed with bow, sword, shield, lance and heavy armor. Is that also true for the rank-and-file kataphraktoi or just for the klibanophorii? Judging from your name I thought you might be an expert on the subject

[kataphraktoi]

From my perception the Byzantine army weasn't as uniform in terms of equipment and arms as they would like to be but adjusted to the situation on the field.

It seems the Kataphraktoi was a unit adjusted to the byzantine - style of warfare and they were primarily a shock action trooper. But since it was the byzantine style it wasn't necessarily the true kataphraktoi style of the Sassanids and the Parthians.

However the Klibanophori(i) as the elite is the true representation of what the Kataphraktoi should be, strong Klibs were lancers while weaker ones used bows, so it is safe to say the Klibs were well armed and well armoured in all aspects but adjusted to practical warfare.

So therefore the:

kataphraktoi was primarily a shock trooper

klibanophori was composite missile shock trooper depending on the individual speaking, it can be individualised since their numbers were obviously small

Hopes this clears it up

the real title of the book I mentioned was

First Crusader : byzantium's holy wars

geoffrey regan

[Sainika]

As turk if you play early - forget about very good turkish unique units at least for some time. Your army must have saracen infantry, a lot of saracen infantry, tons of saracen infantry. And ghazi inf. And a high-star general otherwise your saracens will run away easily. The best initial archers - desert ones. I like their kill ratio - they fire with the accuracy of arbalesters but have smaller bunch of arrows. Your logo in the war with Byz: attack and attack. Maneuvres: outflanks, rear assaults. Do not count on archers: they are nice but once they are slaughtered by Kats your army can flee from the battlefield with no doubts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Prepare to have heavy losses against VG and Kats. Your soldiers are much more cheaper than those byz troops so you have an advantage here. Quick expansion is not vital but preferable. And good Luck
As for me I played turks once (early, expert). First I eliminate byz of course, then Egypt. When you take Constantinople try not to give it back to anybody - byz or Crusaders. It is your heart, your main hope to win.

[econ21]

This is a useful thread - I wonder if it could be added to the Table of Contents?

[Heraclius]

Kataphraktoi,

checked the library and I couldn't find the book you were talking about. I might go again and look over the weekend or possibly get it from Amazon.com Anyway, thanks for the tip

[Gregoshi]

We could add it to the ToC after it has run its course.

[HopAlongBunny]

Quote[/b] (Sainika @ Feb. 25 2003,10:48)]As for me I played turks once (early, expert). First I eliminate byz of course, then Egypt. When you take Constantinople try not to give it back to anybody - byz or Crusaders. It is your heart, your main hope to win.
I have to agree. Byzantium first seems to be the way to go.

Constantinople gives a huge boost in income AND meeting those building requirements for your beloved Janissaries. Egypt first probably wins as far as income goes, but you will spend it all on building what Constantinople already has.

A further advantage (if you can control the Black Sea) is control of the bottleneck for most crusades. Allows you to concentrate your forces and repel Christians with ease.

My enthusiasm for Byz first probably stems from finally getting through an Early Turk campaign w/o having to debase my currency or establish Sunday work camps. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

An alternate I have not tried yet is a variant on the Egypt first method. If you leave Tripoli, Antioch and Palestine in Egyptian hands while taking Egypt (via Arabia-Sinai) you may avoid crusades aimed at those territories. The downside is leaving an enemy (the Egyptians) more-or-less intact, and the crusades are probably going to go through you to get to them anyhow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Just a few thoughts (and way tooo long, sorry) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Hamburglar]

I've been playing Turks in early and I also believe Turcoman Horse is the key. Just have at least 3 or 4 in every army. On the defense they just rock.

Set your troops up WAYYY in the back, and put your Turcoman troops in the front, and just hose the enemy. Against the Byzantines try to target their Katas and Varangians and by the time they reach your lines they will be decimated. Oftentimes the Katas will try to chase your Turcos and that is great because they will never catch them. The Katas will get so tired out they will be useless. When your Turcos run out of arrows, if you have more than 16 units then just haul ass off the map and get reinforcements. You just killed off a lot of the enemy and tired them out at barely any loss.

Also, Ottoman infantry are great on the defense. they are very tightly packed and good archers so you can really fit a bunch scrunched together. Just put Saracens in front, then Ottomans right behind them and then Turcoman Foot behind those guys and your defensive position is a pincushion. The Ottomans are also very good infantry to duke it out without their bows.

On the attack I almost do the same tactics... Just set up a defensive position on a hill close to the enemy, and just go crazy and harass them with Turcoman horse - eventually they will come after you and come smashing into your Saracen and foot archer pincushion. Thats how I've been slaughtering the Byzantines. Just hose them with so many arrows - thats the key. Armenian Cav are also very good to slip off way to the side in the beginning of the battle and then dive in and hose their archers. Killing their archers gives your Turcoman horses free reign because archers are their only real enemy. Turcomans can kill regular archers easily by charging them if you can seperate them from the group but Trebizond archers tend to kill Turcomans in melee so for those you need to avoid them or send in Armenians.

The key to the Turks is definitely lots of Turcomans until you get your Jannisarries. The Byzantines weakness is lack of mobility and mobility is exactly the Turkish strength, so use it.

[Mr Frost]

Armenian Heavy Cavalry from Armenia are a match for Feudal Knights {which are basically a double strength unit of Early Royal Knights} except that S.P. Feudals need an Armoures' Workshop {so build one of those and your even} and with the Master Horse Breeder {no castle leval requirements} you get +2 valour Armenian Heravy Cavalry which are a match for Chivalric Knights except for their needing an Armourers' Guild which you can always build {remember , you will have an entire period to build up Armenia before you face Chivalric forces} .
Ghulam Cavalry {not the bodyguards} are much harder to get and slightly inferior to Armenian Heavy Cavalry {2 less charge bonus} HOWEVER , you can still get them bonused in Lesser Armenia {I think that's the province -my game is heavily modifyed- but I do remember it is in the Turkish area of the map} and build that up for +2 valour AND you can then conquer an iron baring province and build that up to get weapon bonuses {which is impossible with Armenian Heavy Cavalry unless you mod the game} thus giving you a large {40 men instead of the paltry 20 of your Ghulam Bodyguards} heavy cavalry unit that can match nearly every other heavy cavalry excpt the Lancers and Gothics and even those it can serve you as well as say Chivalric Knights might normally .

Turcomen Horse in whichever Eqyptian province {a crusading province if memory serves} get their +1 valour and with Master Horse Breeder then +2 which then allows them a better melee than basic Steppe Cavalry or Hobliars {think of upgraded +1 valour and an Armourer Turcomen Horse as Fast Hobilars with bows and you won't be too far wrong } and with some armour upgrades they will be the best all-round light cavalry in the campain