Troop Transport

[Whatname]

Hello all. This is my first post.

I'm relatively new to the game. I really enjoy playing it, but there are a few things that I find a bit frustrating, one of them being the method of transporting troops with naval units.

I understand how the actual methodology works in the game, but I'm wondering if the way it's implemented really make sense.

If I have an unbroken chain of ships, stretching from Norway to Egypt, for example, I can transport any number of armies from Norway to Egypt in one turn. So theoretically, my armies are boarding transport ships in Norway, which are then taking one year to sail to Egypt.

However, If I try to move only my ships from Norway to Egypt, it will take me several turns to get there. How is it that my armies are able to make the trip faster than my ships? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

This is particularly confusing if I'm using, say, English Barques, which can only move one sea square per year. That itself pretty annoying. Can my ship really not make it from England to Spain in under a year?

Just looking for some discussion.

[Foreign Devil]

The short answer here is that, well, its only a game. Reality often has to be sacrificed for the sake of gameplay.

[Whatname]

Well, I can see that at some point that some sort of compromise is needed as far as how to limit the movement of ships, but surely a better method of transporting troops over water can be found.

This is handled, in my opinion, far better in many other strategic games by various means. These possibilites can include:
1. A distinction between warships and transports.
2. Having to load the troops onto the ships.
3. Setting a limit as to the number of troops per ship.
3. Having to physically move the ships from point to point.
4. Having to unload the troops at their destination.

Now, I realize that implementing this type of system would require extensive programming. But it IS done elsewhere.

In my opinion, the current system creates pretty wide inconsistencies within the game about troop movements in general, and about the Medieval period in particular.

The designers seem to have gone to great lengths to make a very realistic simulation of warfare in this period. Obviously, a lot of research was put into it, and for the most part it seems to be very well done. But, being able to directly support armies in Palestine from Ireland? Can we even do that in the 21st century? And then to say that I can't support those same armies in Tripoli from say Rum, even though it is much closer?

[Brutal DLX]

Good points, on the flip side though, that chain of ships is extremely vulnerable, even if you cleared the seas of other ships before (which is a bit easy since the AI isn't doing well in that regard), you can still get your supply route blockaded by newly built ships, which can cause you a delay for at least one turn. Now, if several hostile ships interrupt your link to Egypt, supporting your troops there isn't so easy anymore...
At the same time, you as the player can restrict yourself a bit regarding such endeavours in really faraway lands, other than crusades, it isn't so historically correct, you know? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Currently, I have to say I like the naval transport system as is much better than moving troops into ships, and then ships to the destination. You would have to destroy only one ship piece then to kill a whole army stack That's not so good, especially for the AI.
Perhaps something like that will be implemented into Rome Total War, which apparently won't be turn based but rather continuous, so perhaps you can watch your ships sail along...

[Gregoshi]

Greetings Whatname. Thanks for bringing your own discussion to the table for a first post.

You have good points, but the naval warfare/transport system in MTW is better than none at all like in Shogun. Many people were asking for ships in that game. As each version of the TW series comes out, we'll seem various aspects of the system get refined. I think the point Foreign Devil and Brutal mentioned or hinted at is valid. A more realistic naval system increases the micromanagement needed. There is already lots of things to micromanage in the game.

[chilling]

I actually quite like the ship system as it is. There isn't too much micromanagement involved in creating a chain of ships to whatever province you have your beady eye upon. I'd like to see a distinction between a warship and a trader/transports as that would be fairly realistic. You could build your trading empire but you have to be able to protect it with a fleet of warships too. This would stop you rushing to get that trade advantage that is so easily gained. Just think, a huge trade empire of ships with no warships, just one warship entering and decimating your trade/transport links could be devistating. It would make you focus on protecting your fleet at least.

Each turn is a year so loading and unloading is too micro for my liking. In a year most of these ships could reach most of the map so the trasporting troops stuff should just be a given.

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (chilling @ Feb. 27 2003,10:01)]I actually quite like the ship system as it is. There isn't too much micromanagement involved in creating a chain of ships to whatever province you have your beady eye upon. I'd like to see a distinction between a warship and a trader/transports as that would be fairly realistic. You could build your trading empire but you have to be able to protect it with a fleet of warships too. This would stop you rushing to get that trade advantage that is so easily gained. Just think, a huge trade empire of ships with no warships, just one warship entering and decimating your trade/transport links could be devistating. It would make you focus on protecting your fleet at least.

Each turn is a year so loading and unloading is too micro for my liking. In a year most of these ships could reach most of the map so the trasporting troops stuff should just be a given.
You have to remember the (invisible) trade ships are actually owned & managed by the merchants - they do all the trading we just tax the pants off them.

I still think the naval system could be refined though. Hopefully RTW will do that. Perhaps we will be able to see the merchant fleets sailing around and we have to decide whether they require our protection or not etc.

It has been talked about before of being able to specify missions for your fleets ie. blockade enemy, patrol, protect trading fleets etc. and I think this has merit. Plus I would love to have some ocean battles as well as land battles.

As for being able to move an army from Finalnd to Eqypt in one turn with linked ships I too think unrealistic and have taken to limiting my fleets into 2 sections - 1 in the med and the other in the North ie. off French coast and up to scandinavia and don't link them up.

Quite fun as the French keep sinking my pathetic fleets up north while my strong med fleets can't help (besides have plenty of trouble with nasty Sicilians).

[Gaius Julius]

Hi Whatname
I think the troop transport method is alright.
Remember; in the interests of gameplay, the developers had to sacrifice some reality.
After all it is only a game, albeit a very good one.
For entertainment purposes you must learn to adopt a sense of suspension of disbelief.

[SirGrotius]

I always thought of fleets as representing areas of influence, and thus, opportunity.

[Whatname]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Feb. 26 2003,17:44)]A more realistic naval system increases the micromanagement needed. There is already lots of things to micromanage in the game.

True. A more intricate system would lead to a lot more micromanagement. And chilling has a good point about the loading and unloading taking place within the one year time frame.

So how about a compromise? Keep it simple but still make it a bit more realistic?

Would it be reasonable to have a system like the one currently implemented, but (and this goes back to my original post) limit the distance that troops could travel over water? Perhaps the troops could be limited to movement over water equal to the maximum number of sea squares that their ships can travel. If you have ships of varying travel capabilities, the troops could use the better ships, but only if that ship is in the adjacent sea (they can't board a ship that's not there). Also, troops should not be able to travel via the deep sea squares unless those ships can also do so.

This keeps it simple. There would be no additional micromanagement. But it gets rid of the anomoly of having troops travel faster than their transport ships. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif