Can withdrawing give you a vice?

[VRViperII]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Hello all. This is my first post here.

I have a question regarding the Vice good runner.
It seems that if your general routs even once he gets this vice tagged to him. It has put me in many situations where I fight a hopeless cause just to avoid getting this vice.

My question is, If you simply withdraw your general, rather than letting him be routed, can he still be tagged with the runner vice? He's still fleeing, and loosing the battle to boot, but it would be nice to know that I could send good generals into battle with only the intention of weakaning the enemy, not destroying them.

Usualy I have the manpower to crush the enemy, but it would be nice to attack, say the golden horde, kill about 3k of them and then withdraw.

Or when choosing to defend a province and then realising that you are grosly overmatched.

[Kraxis]

No, I believe you won't get any bad Vices from withdrawing, but it will still count as a loss.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Hi VRViperII glad you advanced here, and didn't retreat. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Unfortunately the game would rather have one do the Charge of the Light Brigade, than take the more prudent course of action. I have only withdrew a general from a battle once, and didn't get a negative vice. Of course his army was destroyed by overwhelming numbers, but I saved him because he was a 7 star general and provided a healthy valor boost to his troops. Every other time I tried this my general got a negative vice, Good Runner, Eager to Retreat, Hesitant, Retreats Very Often etc... Sometimes the game isn't fair, just like real life.

[Cazbol]

I've only done it once. I decided to defend against a superior force to thin their ranks a bit. I kept my general in a safe place close to the map border and withdrew him when my lines broke. He received no vices.

It might help to withdraw him before the last of his troops has routed.

[Kraxis]

My god it seems I have been lucky...
Since a guy posted you didn't get any vices I began withdrawing from impossible battles. I have done it perhaps 20 times now and haven't gotten a single vice yet. Most of the time only my general and a few units have managed to get out, but rather that than a horrible vice.

[Red Harvest]

I regularly withdraw good generals from hopeless battles and place them in such a way that it is possible to escape without being routed. As long as they don't rout I've never gotten a bad vice. Now perhaps if the same general did it several times in a row...but I rarely lose a battle.

Also want to point out that I usually let him do quite a bit of fighting before I finally withdraw because he might kill a hundred or more before it is time to go. There is a bit of art to doing this well. I tend to rally other tiny slower fragments and use them as bait when I finally am ready to withdraw, and I'm careful not to let any enemy units get anywhere behind him before withdrawing.

[Davethulhu]

Losing a battle can give you Weak Attacker (or defender) which is a -1 command penalty on attack (or defense). Depending on the odds, you could also get Weak Risky Attacks or Weak Desperate Defense (-1 command when outnumbered 2-1).

[Kraxis]

Welcome to the org Davethulhu, you have a name that reminds me of an old guy here... could you be him in disguise? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Well about the Weak Attacker, you have to lose many more troops than the defender, you have to make it a disaster for your army.

[VRViperII]

Thanks for the help.

So as long as you keep your general's unit from routing, it's safe to withdraw. That's going to be quite helpful if I ever get my back to the wall. Hopefully I'll never have to use it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Davethulhu]

I've had this nick forever, but I'm new to this board. I'm pretty sure I got weak after a withdrawl, but it's been a while. There's a different vice for calling off the attack prior to deployment, but I can't recall which that one is.

[Heraclius]

Quote[/b] (Davethulhu @ Mar. 01 2003,18:19)] There's a different vice for calling off the attack prior to deployment, but I can't recall which that one is.
I think that would be the Hesitant vice but I'm not quite sure.

[Gregoshi]

Old nick or new nick, welcome Davethulhu.

With a nick-nack, paddy-whack, Dave is a pa-tron(e)
Thanks for ma-king Org your home.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Sorry Dave. That was really bad.

I think I deserve a warning for that one. Kukri, Hosakawa...I wouldn't hold it against you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Davethulhu]

Thanks Gregoshi, and, yeah, I think Hesitant is the one for calling off attacks.

[Rob The Bastard]

Gregoshi...you'll have to stop cleaning your scarves in ether...the fumes must be going to your head, mate.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[cugel]

Thanks Gregoshi, and, yeah, I think Hesitant is the one for calling off attacks.

Actually it gets worse. The AI got caught in a loop attacking one of my provinces and then withdrawing before the battle because it couldn't win. It did this 5 times in a row and got the Vacilator vice (-3 morale I think) This was designed to prevent soaking off attacks, a gamey technique much used in Shogun, where you send a weak army into one province and a strong army into another, withdraw the weak one without a battle (thus splitting the AI's defenses).