Upgrading Units

[R3dD0g]

In middle game I find I have a lot of provinces being defended by very low level troops, Urban Militia, Spearmen and Peasants. But, I've built the Town Watch building usually to Town Militia and Halbardiers are available, sometimes with very good armour and weapons even.

I don't plan to let the enemy get into the rear where all these old troops are, but ... just in case.

Does it make sense to disband all the old timey units and reman the provinces with modern troops?

[Gaius Julius]

Yes, IMHO it does make sense to upgrade to better units when they become available.
As far as disbanding the old troops, not a bad idea, saves florins on support costs.
Although, if I remember correctly, when you disband units, they can come back as mercenaries. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[R3dD0g]

Well, if the Byz want to use my no upgrade Spearmen, they're welcom to 'em http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I've got a ton of florins now, but soon the world will turn against me and my income will go negative and I'll be attacked everywhere.

So, I think I will start upgrading all my garrisons.

[SirGrotius]

This is off topic, but is there a thread that deals with this situation, which you, rdog, just described, in detail. I mean, really, I was coasting along with maximum trade, and 400,000+ florins in my account when the three most powerful factions declared war on me and brought my income from 17,000+ to -9,000, this all in the course of two years. Needless to say, I'm fighting for my life.

[SirGrotius]

And, I've been excommunicated for being beat up on and trying to take the power back as it were.

[Avenger]

That Pope dude is in for it. As soon as you start away with a small campaign to grab some new land, that old bugger excommunicates you. I say, get a big fat army and march against rome.

A puppy pope is far better than the real one.

Excommunication is really bad for your economy as well, because you have to lower your tax rates all over your empire to settle the peasants down...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Red Harvest]

Just posting here in hopes that I will eventually be able to post elsewhere... Still haven't figured out this system, very weird (Byzantine...LOL) but eventually perhaps I'll be able to post in the Main Hall rather than here.

[Tyrac]

I find that many of the old units are still usful. The only garrisons I ever use are peasants. The game I believe bases revolts purely on numbers of men not how good the units are. I am pretty sure that in terms of support per man-unit peasants are the cheapest.
I keep the old units on the front lines where they see the most action. Periodically I re combine them and cycle them back to the homelands for a refit in weapons and armor.
3 and 4 valor spearmen, for example, can fight very well in terran that slows and exhausts the more modern and usually heavily armored troops. 4 valor archers do some pretty nasty things to even well armored foes and with a 2 or 3 point armor upgrade they can live through that surprise light Cav charge.
Because of this I build very few new troops, and only for my main assault armies as I get them and keep my costs way way down.

[R3dD0g]

Quote[/b] (SirGrotius @ Jan. 18 2003,01:44)]This is off topic, but is there a thread that deals with this situation, which you, rdog, just described, in detail. I mean, really, I was coasting along with maximum trade, and 400,000+ florins in my account when the three most powerful factions declared war on me and brought my income from 17,000+ to -9,000, this all in the course of two years. Needless to say, I'm fighting for my life.
I did a search on 'upgrading units' before posting and didn't come up with anything useful. Just some mechanics and something about MP.

[Red Harvest]

Perhaps the best way to deal with the obsolete units is to use them up as cannon fodder in castle sieges or chasing down skirmishers and the like. (You really don't want to waste 100 high value troops dashing into a fortress to kill half a dozen peasants--of course you can autocalc and avoid this, but the autocalc for seiges is badly flawed and does not give proper credit to the building's defenses.) In campaigns I generally try to upgrade the older partially filled out units with armor etc. at times where I'm low on florins and would otherwise be limited to building perhaps a single unit--better to upgrade two or three units to full strength and good armor/weapons than build one medium tech unit. Then after upgrading, I advance them to a hot spot. If I get into a florin crunch and need new units I often look for really obsolete units and start disbanding them until my income is better. Also, remember to bring some of the obsolete units into action for easy opponents like peasant rebellions; you can use up the weaker units over time this way. Some of the light units are also good in the desert and in places where the heavily armoured units quickly tire and are routed. They are of course useful for garrison duty, but if you get into a tight spot, they aren't much use for defending against a powerful invader, and can be more of a hindrance than help.

[DBS]

The only units I ever disband are peasants early on, when cash is tight. And even then, only after checking that their commander does not have 4 acumen, in which case he becomes a very good governor in a safe province.

Otherwise, frankly there are no troops that I do not find some use for - I always play English, but even though Billmen are incomparable infantry, I still find Urban Militia, for example, useful in battle during the High period. If they have been around long enough, they are probably veterans with useful valour, especially if you merge obsolescent units rather than simply rebuild. Fighting defensively - my preferred tactic - they can pin any infantry, allowing flankers to deliver the coup de grace, and giving the billmen the freedom to concentrate on the high risk threats such as knights.

[Exile]

Disband them - they were cheap to produce but eat up valuable florins in upkeep costs. Just make sure to check each unit leader's stats first so you don't disband a potentially good governor.

In a battle with superior troops those obsolete troops would route quickly. So, they are of little value.

I do keep peasents to garrison my provs that do not border any other factions. They are cheap to upkeep and where prov happiness is concerned, it's only the number of troops that matter, not the quality. Spearmen I dump as soon as I don't need them becuase their upkeep is higher than peasents. UM are relatively cheap, so I keep them if I need them to garrison 'safe' provs, otherwise they go too.

[Brutal DLX]

I never use peasants as garrison, their upkeep isn't that cheap and they have virtually no combat power. Better to use one unit of spearman and one unit of militia/crossbows.

As for upgrading, if you have the money and the will to put up with micromanagment (if you have many provinces), then sure, go and build new garrison units, but don't go too high with the upkeep costs, it will hurt you, should your trade income suffer later on.

As for Halberdiers, I'm still not sold on them. I'd rather use two units of Militia seargents than one unit of slow Halberdiers, I usually wait until pikemen are available. They are worth their money, after all. Also, a real cavalry killer are dismounted Chiv. Knights. Try it out sometime.

[SmokWawelski]

I can hardly see any reason to keep pesants around, if you can afford to build spears or militia. The upkeep is almost the same, but the military value is better (anything is better than plebs)... Of course if you cannot afford better units, who cares? Use them to hold other peasants in bay for the cheapest price around. If the enemy can get to your homelad you are dead anyway, so even
heavy knight will not save your butt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[econ21]

I've never disbanded any units except peasants (utterly worthless) and mercs (too expensive). Old units are largely useful for garrison duties and cannon fodder (the wargame rules designer Terry Gore once said medieval battles were attritional and that seems well modelled in this game&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Also, for Catholics, it can make sense to send them to the desert, as they typically are more lightly armoured.

If you were really short of money (Eg Poles?), disbanding might make sense but for bigger empires, it seems unnecessary.

[Snowhobbit]

Always disband peasants. THere ont worth the cost

[Gregoshi]

Red Harvest - you can post to all the forums. You are a Junior Member. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif