What are the benefits of having allies?

[Windwood]

In the single player game of MTW, what are the benefits of having allies? I ask this question because I started my campaign forging alliances to keep from fighting war on too many fronts. Yet beyond a simple I-won't-attack-you-if-you-won't-attack-me sort of arrangement, I have yet to see any additional benefits.

I mean, at one point I was allied with the French. Both the French and my Danes were at war with Spain. When the Spanish attacked me, the French never did anything to help me.

Will allies (when controlled by the AI) ever actually do anything to help you? Are there ever any circumstances in the single player game when more than two factions can be sharing the same battlefield?

Just wondering.

[Westland]

While defending none my allies ever helped me. But sometimes when I attack, a ally sends an army to assist. You could say that they do this for their own benefit. But I´m pretty sure they wouldn´t have attacked if I hadn´t started the attack. This kind of help is rare though.
Ofcourse this can also work against you. One time as the french, I faced three enemy armies. One rebel army because of civil war, and the allied forces of the english and danes. Lucky for me the rebels did the dirty work for me and attacked the invading armies. They wiped out the english and most of the danes. I only had to deal with a few remaining units.

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Its true, allies dont help you out much. After all this time that ive been playing, i can only recall one incident where an ally actually did anything. I was playing as the Bryzantines in the Early Period. Lithuania, a province under my control, decided to rebel. I was shocked and amazed to see my Polish allies send in an army to assist mine with defending the province against the rebels.

I must say I did enjoy seeing my Ally actually act as an ally and help out. Mayby i a new patch we might be able to see a greater imput from allies? Such as sending in supporting units as well as funds. Could make the game a bit more interesting. Mayby also have allies do simultaneous invasions with you?

[desdichado]

The byz last night actually broke a siege for me that happened as a result of a civil war. They must have felt sorry for me after taking 3 of my provinces and killing one of my best generals.

Patronising bastards http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[wordsmith]

I was playing italians high expert. The almohads had my forces in aragorn under seige with a sizable force when my allies the danes pulled away there main army which was seiging the almohads in castile pulled out and fought off the almohad army returning the province to my control.

Me and the danes went way back by this point, we had made taken the british isle from the french and were sharing it in a patchwork of ownership. I had saved them from many seiges by previous enemies and had always sent in forces to aid them with taking on there enemies.

Then at the end of this same campain I declared war on the russians on a whim, the very next turn the danes launched an amphibious assult on the russian main land even though they had no previous hostilities.

From the very start the danes and i were allies and it only broke twice, both times when the pope attacked me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

this, of course, was with the wes med mod installed
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Quote[/b] (wordsmith @ Mar. 11 2003,03:32)]I was playing italians high expert. The almohads had my forces in aragorn under seige with a sizable force when my allies the danes pulled away there main army which was seiging the almohads in castile pulled out and fought off the almohad army returning the province to my control.

Me and the danes went way back by this point, we had made taken the british isle from the french and were sharing it in a patchwork of ownership. I had saved them from many seiges by previous enemies and had always sent in forces to aid them with taking on there enemies.

Then at the end of this same campain I declared war on the russians on a whim, the very next turn the danes launched an amphibious assult on the russian main land even though they had no previous hostilities.
Wow, i wish my allies did more of that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Does anyone actually know if there is an actual set way of making an ally more co-operative and helpful?

[wordsmith]

this is the only game i have had such sucess with an ally, but it may have been b/c of my style of play. I had two goals for the game. 1st was i wanted to make over 1mill florins (i finished with one 1,800,000) 2nd was I wanted to groom one muslim faction and one catholic faction to consume the rest of europe and then fight a mega war with each other. I chose the danes as the catholic faction and been helping them fight all there wars and relieveing their seiges often.

It was a good game, by the end of it i had a 6 stack army comprised of all gothic units about 3 stacks all had full armor and weapon upgrades and all 6 had level 9 commanders.

unfortunantly the eygptians wiped the turks, sinking my ships so i was unable to aid them and in the end the mega battle was between the russians eygptians. at the end i took out a terrible wrath upon both the russians and egyptians because their meer existance defied my authority

[Sundance]

Well, in my opinion it is not always helpful to make allies with too many nations during the starting phase of a game. Sooner or later war brakes out. And it often happened to me that suddenly about five out of six allies broke the alliance and the next few turns some of them would even attack me (surrounded by neutral factions and with a single ally left, far away in africa).
By the way, I know that the reputation of my ruler has an influence on relations to other factions. Does it influence the decision of helping me in a battle, too?

And I find it very annoying when an ally joins me in a battle where I have to do most of the dirty work and after we are victorious he has ten people more left and so the province goes to him. Arrrgh

[Tigger]

Quote[/b] (wordsmith @ Mar. 10 2003,23:32)]I was playing italians high expert. The almohads had my forces in aragorn under seige with a sizable force when my allies the danes pulled away there main army which was seiging the almohads in castile pulled out and fought off the almohad army returning the province to my control.

Me and the danes went way back by this point, we had made taken the british isle from the french and were sharing it in a patchwork of ownership. I had saved them from many seiges by previous enemies and had always sent in forces to aid them with taking on there enemies.

Then at the end of this same campain I declared war on the russians on a whim, the very next turn the danes launched an amphibious assult on the russian main land even though they had no previous hostilities.

From the very start the danes and i were allies and it only broke twice, both times when the pope attacked me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

this, of course, was with the wes med mod installed
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
So do you think that Wes med mod improves diplomacy? I've got this installed and am currently playing a game as the Danes. I aimed to sit tight and only take key provinces and get the trading going. This has worked well, it's about 1220 and i've 1.2 million in the bank.

It didn't take long for war to break out though, the byzantines, poles, russians and now germans seem hell bent on destroying me Must be all my gold I guess?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Anyways the spanish have remained allies the whole time, they are now huge occupying, Spain, France, England, most of Africa and northern Italy and so far they'v remained allied though i'm not expecting it to so remain too much longer

[SmokWawelski]

The biggest benefit of having allies in this game is the ability to utilize the tactics caled: Secret Backstab Move. SBM is a technique used by the coders to elevate game's challenge level to a new extreme by negating any loayalty fellings of the AI and covering up its shortcommings on a strategic level.

The AI will temporarly play your friend, and when the times get rough, or the AI runs out of free cycles on the processor, it will attack you immediately with no apparent reason, motive, any benefit in sight or even hope to win the attack. The allies state is temporary in nature, and the AI tries to establish as many alliance as possible to be able to utilize the SBW against the least expecting opponent by using one of it's friends.

Up to date there are no other proved reasons to have allies than to deploy the SBM in this game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[wordsmith]

secret backstab move? wouldnt that be SBM.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

anyhizzy, I dont think the wes mod really changed the diplomacy, but i believe that the other changes that were made, expecially in the sea trade aspect did change diplomacy indirectly.

I really believe that all the help i gave the danes did matter to them. I never even garrisoned the british isles, and at one point the main danish army was trapped on the isle b/c they had no port and were losing money. They did not attack me and eventually i pulled destroyed all the buildings in ireland except for the port and then left it to rebles so the danes could get there army out with out attacking me. They also had a navy about twice the size of mine, most of the navy was comprised of longboats but they probably would have won the sea battle based on sheer numbers.

One of the very important things ive learned about getting and keeping allies is you do NOT want to have the largest army. This pisses people off and makes them want to attack you, for a long time the eygptians had the largest army and every one was at war with them until I joined in (to help the danes, heh) and sunk all their ships which through the massive egyptian empire into civil war. Then the Danes had the largest army and every one turned on them. Now im in the habit of keeping the smallest army I can, only a standing army of elite, then train up cannon fodder when i need it.

some day ill go to danerland and thank all the wonderfull supermodles and vikings for there loyalty to the italians empire http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[SmokWawelski]

Silly me, of course: SBM. I must have run out of cycles myself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[rob s]

I think the allied/neutral/enemy thing could me improved on greatly.

I'd like to see a way of requesting help from an ally (instead of them helping you out when you don't need/want it) and also allies request help from you when attacked.

Also, the ability to travel through an allies province without causing hostilities.

The ability to help an ally faction that has retreated to the castle by attack the seiging enemy without the AI assuming you are helping the attacker to kill the ally in the castle.

[Windwood]

Quote[/b] (rob s @ Mar. 11 2003,14:38)]I'd like to see a way of requesting help from an ally (instead of them helping you out when you don't need/want it) and also allies request help from you when attacked.

Also, the ability to travel through an allies province without causing hostilities.

When I first got started, I had sort of assumed you could request help from your allies. I quickly learned otherwise.

I, too, wish you could move through an ally's territory without creating an international incident. It caused a lot of headaches early in the game.

I have yet to see the AI actually do anything with my allies to assist me, but I'm still playing my first campaign and everyone is my enemy now.

It looks like I got my question answered. Essentially your allies will help you when the AI feels like it. I guess I had been hoping y'all might let me in on some secret way of exploiting your allies to your advantage. Perhaps in some future game....

[SmokWawelski]

Windwood, sorry to dissapoint you in the sneaky way of AI politics.

As to traveling through the allied territory: there was a discussion on this some time ago and the conclusion was that such things would not be true to the historical data. Such travels were limitted only to crusades, and even then the kings/earls/princes/dukes wanted to get foreign armies out of their lands ASAP. I don't know, am not an expert but that was what other people said...

At the end, the diplomacy could be improved a lot...

[USMCNJ]

I think ECS said this.

Before the faction attacks a province he looks at the size of his army the size of the army in the province, then the income that will be produced by this province. and the it looks at the relationship with the province owner.
I don't remember the exact numbers, but the faction is less likly to attack you if you're allies. But don't be fooled if you leave one unit of peasants at Constentinople any neigbor friend or foe will attack.

[Windwood]

Quote[/b] (SmokWawelski @ Mar. 11 2003,19:46)]As to traveling through the allied territory: there was a discussion on this some time ago and the conclusion was that such things would not be true to the historical data. Such travels were limitted only to crusades, and even then the kings/earls/princes/dukes wanted to get foreign armies out of their lands ASAP.

Good point. I hadn't really considered that. When medieval armies travelled long distances they were often tempted to plunder villages and farms along the way for food and other essentials. Some were ordered to do so by their generals. Thus, a ruler or provincial governor might not be particular pleased to allow an army to pass through that wasn't on a mission from God http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Still, I would never let my armies do anything like that, so my allies should just get back in line and do what I want them to do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif (Oh dear, I'm starting to sound a little like George W.)

[A.Saturnus]

Allies definitely have an advantage: you can help them
In my recent Egyptian campaign, I`m pretty defensive, while the Turks have build a huge empire. We had some trouble in the beginning but then peace for over 100 years. But with the arrival of the Horde, they had serious problems. My budget included a new design army, that was originally meant to be an attack force, but as I decided to help the Turks against the Horde, it became an internation intervention force Right now, I`m helping out my allies against the French. Due to that help, my Influence is on 9 all the time, the Spanish have asked for peace the same year they made a crusade (I agreed, that crusade never entered my territory anyway), all my generals are most loyal and my border with the Turks is only lightly guarded, but hasn`t seen any attack since nearly 200 years now.
My men should wear little blue helmets, but I guess that would make them less effective http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[NewJeffCT]

What I laugh sarcastically at is when I asked for an alliance, the other king says a reduction of forces along our borders would prove your sincerity

My thought, of course, is that if I reduce my forces there, it is an open invitation to invade that province.

And, if I do reduce my forces and re-ask for an alliance, I still get turned down.

And, why does the Pope ask me to reduce forces along his border when I'm the English and just have the English Isles, a few territories in northern France, and Constantinople due to a Crusade? Granted, I have a ship in every coastal region, but no forces anywhere near the Pope.

[wordsmith]

Those messages dont mean any thing, they are randomly generated. But they do give some clues as to how the diplomacy system works, The ai is less likely to accept an alliance if you have huge armies at there boarders, more likely to accept if you are at war with the same factions it is at war with ect.