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Why does the game have the Jihad as a tool to only reconquer lost territory. While commonly thought to mean holy war... this term actually means striving... in its purest sense it was the striving to convert others to the light of islam and/or force others to yield to the authority of islam... this is inherently offensive in nature rather than defensive...
Heraclius
03-03-2003, 04:51
I agree with you here. A jihad was mainly an offensive weapon although sometimes used as a defensive one. Maybe the common misconception of its being a purely defensive tool was caused by the Palestinian jihad trying to reclaim territory from Israel. I wish that I could use a jihad as an offensive weapon in the game though. would make for an interesting game launching a jihad to Paris instead of the French sending a crusade to Jerusalem.
Although maybe CA wnated to discourage this because no jihads ever attacked France although many a crusade wreaked havoc on the holy land. Still they might have if things had turned out differently and for that reason I think jihads should be used as offensive weapons too.
Baron von Beer
03-03-2003, 06:51
From what I have read before, the West often misinterprets Jihad. I have some friends from the Middle East, and they told me that the best translation would be an all out effort.(everyone contributes) So it could be applied in several contexts, not only military. I guess in terms of the game, that fits, as it is an all out effort, to convince those people that the land they claim is Muslim real estate, and it isn't for sale. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Now, it is still possible they are wrong... if those they learned from had it misinterpreted.
Well there is the large Jihad and the small Jihad, the large is a personal thing, a thing of belief. The second is the one we see in the game. If invaded by infidels the Muslims are obliged to fight back with all means.
I have been studying Bernard Lewis... leading scholar on relations between Islam/Christian relations. He notes that Jihad could be offensive as well as defensive, and further describes the Muslim's contribution to each... this is in a military sense. However, the Jihad is also the quest to spread Islam throughout the world... as it srives to cover the entire world.
If anyone has free time I strongly recommend reading B.L.'s books What Went Wrong as well as Islam and the West.
Heraclius,
Don't be so fooled that a Jihad never attacked France... after Islam's founding it spread like wildfire.. east, west, and south... they only encountered significant resistance from the Byzantines on Christendom's eastern frontier...
In the west... in Spain... Islamic forces faired much better marching along the Iberian across the Pyrenees and into France... only to be defeated by Charles Martel at Tours in 732 Good job France http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Bf 109K - The Last of the Last
Herr Baron von Beer,
It is interesting to note that qur'anic law differentiates between offensive jihad and defensive. In offensive... it is the collective responsibility of the community as a whole to conduct... but in defensive it is the duty of every able bodied male to participate...
Aufwiederhoeren
Bf 109K - The Last of the Last
Baron von Beer
03-04-2003, 09:44
So by their differentiation, if it is offensive, 5 year old children, and 100 year old women are to have a role, but in defensive, they just sit back and watch the men go at it? Seems like backwards priorites to me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Then again, I would imagine (hope?) that when they say everyone, it is more akin to our USA efforts during WW2.. victory gardens, Betty the B17 builder, etc. and not giving the infants and elders scimitars and shipping 'em off to battle. But who knows.. with faith/religion, what may seem unimaginable to one, seems quite normal to another... I'll have to check into that book, sounds like a good read.
Mr. Beer(haha)
I believe it was rather the opposite.. although I'm not sure. I was under the impression that under offensive not every single adult male was obliged to participate... but the community as a whole had to take up the war effort... as opposed to if it was defensive, every single able bodied male was to take up arms
Bf 109K
SmokWawelski
03-07-2003, 16:24
It would be nice to have Jihad march out of Muslim World. As it stands now the muslims are on the defensive position all the time, and not having the offensive capabilities makes the life taffer fro them.
I understand that some of the historical facts could have been in play here, but after all the game is not a history book and there are numerous slight changes to the real way that medieval world was functioning, plus the AI does not make a good job of behaving like a king.
Heraclius
03-07-2003, 22:55
Quote[/b] (bf109k @ Mar. 03 2003,23:48)]Heraclius,
Don't be so fooled that a Jihad never attacked France... after Islam's founding it spread like wildfire.. east, west, and south... they only encountered significant resistance from the Byzantines on Christendom's eastern frontier...
In the west... in Spain... Islamic forces faired much better marching along the Iberian across the Pyrenees and into France... only to be defeated by Charles Martel at Tours in 732 Good job France http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Bf 109K - The Last of the Last
Yes, I do know about Charles Martel and Tours but I would not call that a Jihad, at all. It was more of a raiding party from Muslim Spain, which was at the time convulsed with civil wars and Berber rebellions I believe.
Ignorance is an evil in Islam.
It is the duty of all Muslims to educate themselves.
This is considered a great struggle or jihad; self improvement.
What a shame some people cannot learn from others, and shine in the light of ignorance.
Decaying blissfully as trees in the scorched desert breeze.
Heraclius,
While the assault into France came from Muslim Spain - Obviously :-) ... I think it was more than a raiding party. In addition to Tours, there were several major battles for the city of Narbonne.. with the Muslims captured in 715... and finally lost in 759... attacked again in 793, and yet again in 840... failing to capture. This was a coordinated effort to invade France... rather than simple raiding parties. Many historians attribute the failure of the Islamic invasion of France to the loss of Narbonne rather than the loss at Tours.
Bf 109K
kataphraktoi
03-13-2003, 06:32
I agree jihad should be an offensive tool as well, anyone who sez the early Arab conquests were defensive needs to be smacked in the head.
JIHAD JIHAD JIHAD1
Float like a Camel, smell like one.
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