Where have all the Varangian Guard gone?

[crushinator]

I was playing as the Byzantines in 'High' period for the first time (and loving the Varangian Guard troops) until the Late period arrived and I couldn't produce them any more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

whats going on? Is this a bug or have my beloved Varangian Guard been removed to make the game harder for the byzantines in the late period?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what do i do for infantry now? The Danes (who, funnily enough, have become the only other superpower) are getting fiesty and will probably crush me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Thanks in advance for your tips

[Red Harvest]

Not clear it is a bug or intentional, but the supply of Varangian's is cut off in Late. Use the Gnome editor to alter the units file and change Varangian to all periods. Seems like a strange handicap for the Byzantines since they also lack decent anti-cav units. The combination is a 1-2 punch against them.

[Elwe]

It is deliberate. VG are Early/High units only. Any units you already have will remain, but you can't train any more.

As for disabling the Byzantine... I don't agree. The Byzantine have what I consider to be one of the best infantry units in the game.. namely: Byzantine Infantry. In my game (Byz, Early, Expert) they were my main line troops in every single battle, holding the line against all attackers. I don't think I ever used Spearmen, and I never felt handicapped against the crusaders. One of the tricks is the efficient use of your VG units to selectively destroy enemy Cav after you have engaged them with your BI. Kataphraktoi are also quite good at taking out 'Western' knights once they have been engaged.

And remeber, Treb archers are your friends.. as are Arbilasters, and Byz Cavalry if used correctly (horse archers that can fight).

Cheers.

[Dramicus]

Quote[/b] ]Where have all the Varangian Guard gone?

...looong time paaassing....
Where have aaall the Varangiaaan Guard gooone?...
Long timeee agooo...
Where have aaall the Varangiaaan Guard gooone?...
Off to graveyards, eeevery oone
When will we ever learn?
When will we eeeeevvverrr learn?


lol, couldent resist... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Hi crushinator and welcome. Sorry I missed your first post - those poll posts fake me out everytime (everyone who votes doesn't necessarily post).

You not only have your answer but a song as well. Who could ask for anything more? That is NOT a cue for a song Dramicus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[econ21]

I'm considering doing a historical mod in which I will take away the kats AND the Byzantine infantry. Then Byz players will really feel aggrieved. I might also give the VG spears, to be provocative

Problem is, it would be a very boring mod.

[Elwe]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ Mar. 13 2003,16:11)]I'm considering doing a historical mod in which I will take away the kats AND the Byzantine infantry. Then Byz players will really feel aggrieved. I might also give the VG spears, to be provocative

Problem is, it would be a very boring mod.
And the point behind this would be..? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Cheers.

[econ21]

I guess the point would be to make it into a historical wargame. The MTW engine for battles is excellent and ranks among the best of all computer wargames. However, CA have explicitly said they are making a mass market strategy game with a historical flavour rather than a historical wargame. So there are several ahistorical aspects, which can be irritating to a grognard (someone who values historical realism in games). Templars not having lances, mythical sword-armed units, anachronistic period placement of crossbows, arbalesters, etc. Some of this could be addressed in a mod, the stuff on the strategy map is probably a lost cause from a historicism point of view but I like well enough.

I admit such a mod may have a market of one.

[Elwe]

Sorry, probably wasn't specific enough.

Kataphraktoi existed (although I don't know enough about their armaments to comment on whether the MTW representation is accurate).

Byzantine Infantry, ok are an ad-hoc attempt to represent the 'standard' armament of Roman troops in the period (rather innacurately, I agree). They should have spears, I believe.

Varangian Guard existed, and were armed with axes, from what I have read... so why mod to spears?

Please, this is a curiosity response, not an attack http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Cheers.

[Elwe]

Quote[/b] (Simon Appleton @ Mar. 13 2003,19:22)]I admit such a mod may have a market of one.
Not quite... it would have a market of at least two... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Cheers.

[Muneyoshi]

Varangians were last used in the early 14th century (1320 or so sounds familiar at the moment, but not too sure) so they wouldnt be in the last period for historical reasons

[crushinator]

Thanks to everyone for the responses (especially the song - lol) and the friendly welcome

I think I'll continue the game and try to use some of Elwes tips (and if i get tried of that I will just cheat and use gnome editor). I do currently use Byz Infantry, Kataphraktoi and Arbilasters, but I find by Byz infantry always take heavy losses against Cav and heavy infantry.

It sounds like I will need to use the Byz infantry as my frontline troops and save my Varangian guard for support/shock troop role.

[Dramicus]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ Mar. 13 2003,15:55)]That is NOT a cue for a song Dramicus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[econ21]

Elwe, I was being a bit provocative in my original post.

I'd read a post by the guy who does the army lists for Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare minatures rules and he said he was convinced the VG used spears, although he was a minority on this. I suspect he is right - almost all Medieval infantry seems to have had spears, plus a variety of sidearms such as swords, axes etc. I am thinking of giving the VG some stats that reflect the use of spears AND axes, as I'm also thinking of doing with late period men-at-arms. In game terms, this would imply a negate cav bonus and AP property - not yet sure about the balance of att/def stats. It's not a big deal either way.

I am more worried about the kats, as losing them would make the Byz less fun. Yes, troops with that name existed throughout the game period (I found a reference to one trying to persuade the last Emperor not to die fighting in Constantinople), but they may be little more than generic heavy cav. I'm not finding any references to the distinctive heavy mail, armoured horse monstrosities of the game after the battle of Manzikert, but admit my research in this area is rather thin.

[rory_20_uk]

I agree that getting rid of the vangarian guard is a rather odd - and unneccecary move. I personally find that they are a leetle too expensive to begin with, but when the money rolls in from trade they can become the lynchpin of the line.
As to the byzantine infantry... Yes, the byzantines did rely heavily on cavalry that were multi use, being armed with a spear (light lance), composite bow, darts and a sword. I imagine that they must have had some infantry though, but why spears? Medieval powers went for spears to begin with as they are so cheap - byzantium never had that problem. Pikes were first used en masse by the Swedes, and so the effect on the battlefirld might not have been noted so far south.
Possibly the byzantine infantry should start with spears, then move onto pikes later in the game...

[Panther]

I read somewhere that byz inf used spears and bows as well as swords

[rory_20_uk]

That would not surprise me, as the reason that the cavalry were so armed was to increase their flexibility on the battlefield. Having the infantry armed with different weapons would also increase their flexibility.
Equipping men with several weapons is very expensive, but Byzantium did have a lot of money.

[kataphraktoi]

I been borrowing books from my university that deal exclusively with the Varangian Guards here the lowdown:

Varangians lasted till AD 1204, it was an ionglorious end to the Varangi when they blackmailed the Emperor into increasing their already considerable pay and second submitted with a fight to the Latin Crusaders.

The late bodyguards of the late Byzantine period consisted of other ethnic groups with little or no Scandanavian background, the Cretans of Crete were however used extensively as were Christianised Turks like the Vardariots of Macedonia. Hmmmm heres a monkey wrench for the Macedonians.

Are Macedonians really descended from the Slavs or are they really Vardariot Turks who adapted the lingua franca and were already Orthodox????

Dramicus may sing a song:

on the condition that the title is:

Are they the Turks?

[rory_20_uk]

Yery interesting that - and fits with tha amount that they were paid - 75 is extorsion
It would be good to have some of those other units being available instead http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BDC]

I would have though that the Vangarian Guard only stopped existing because of the circumstances (ie Byzantinians Empire reducing, Vikings becoming settled) so in MTW with its vastly different world map might mean it is different. So mod them to late period. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

PS I have no real historical information on this so I am probably wrong.

[cugel]

If you're seriously going to do a Byzantine historical mod, there are plenty of sources on the web. You might want to start with this site on Byzantine tactics:

http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/byzantactics.htm

BTW, Varangians were famous for using AXES NOT SPEARS There are a number of mosaic and carved depictions of them -all carrying war axes. For example see: http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/goudenhoorn/81beatson.html

By the later eleventh century at least, the Varangians in Byzantium had become well known for their heavy iron axes (a common appellation was Greek pelekophori, 'axe-bearers&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

They wouldn't have called them axe-bearers if they used spears, now would they?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

In general there are just TONS of references to all aspects of Byzantine warfare at this site: http://www.deremilitari.org/byzantinewarfare.htm

There are many on-line articles with more information than you probably need. If you want to know more about medieval warfare in general see: De Re Militari Online Resources for Students and Scholars at http://www.deremilitari.org/resources.htm

There are many fascinating articles, including about the tactics of the horde v. Mameluke wars, the English tactics, etc., etc.

Highly recommended site for anyone interested in the period. I find reading about this stuff makes the game more interesting.