Argh! Help against French?

[Rowan11088]

I know it's hard to give hints for a specific mid-campaign battle, but maybe just some general strategy suggestions? Anyway, I'm HRE against the French, Early period, and I'm sticking within my borders for the most part. They keep attacking Lorraine (without Pope intervention http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif ) and I cna't retaliate much without Pope warnings, so i'm just defending. This time though, technology is starting to get upped. They come in with 71 Militia Sergeants (60 in one group, 11 in another), 60 archers, two groups of royal knights (argh&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, 80 something urban militia, and 100 peasants. I have a larger force defending, 170 spearmen, 60 militia sergeants, 2 ballistas w/ full crew, around 100 archers, and 100 peasants. I keep losing I've tried twice now. I'm usually pretty good at the battles, I set myself up near the edge with best hills I can fine before it starts, begin by using archers, then having spearmen, peasants and sergeants charge when the archer line is threatened, and try to send archers aroung back to flank if possible. What's been happening is, he sends one group of Knights around the side. I send 40 spearmen to take them. the knights win how I don't know, but my spearmen rout after some hard fighting. The knights attack my archers, my spearmen start to lose to the urban militia, my sergeants fight badly against the opponent's, even downhill, despite same numbers and such, and a lack of battle experience for both units. my general in the archer group gets killed after a while, and everyone routs (but whould have anyway regardless of general). how I am losing this? I outnumber the enemy 500 something to 300 something

[troymclure]

Hey dude. I gots an idea. It sounds like you grab a hill and defend idea is sound http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif but you shouldn't be expecting your forty spearman to take on those knights. Next time try sending the spearman to take the knights and then the militia sergeants to the knights flank, the spearman should hold them and the sergeants have armour piercing so they should do it between them. In the meantime have you other spearman in a line on hold position. Keep peppering him with archers and seiger weapons to lower his moral, and then hopefully your other spearman and milita sergeants should rout those knights and you can bring them down to hit the flanks of his army.
By the way this is all IMHO and if you get creamed as a result of trying this (if you do at all) i take absolutely no responsibilty and will deny i ever posted in reply. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[SmokWawelski]

He he, same here, this post never happened

Try to play with the spears on the defense, without charging them down the hill. Also, if you keep the archers behind, you will be able to keep shoting over your spears. At the end, you can cherge them into the enemy soldiers, just don't do the head-on human wave thing: you are not russian WW2 general And do not expect too much from peasants: they are not soldiers and should not be expected to perform like them...

[Knight_Yellow]

pffff

spear man is posibly the only unit except for peasents i try to get out off my armies i hate them there pointles there supposed to be anti calv but r they hell.

send the militia head into the enemy. flank with the spear men, also once ur inf r fighting stop ur archers and artillery since they cause fear to ur men too if they get hit, witch they usualy do....., so use the archers as a sort of reinforcement once h2h is gettin on charge them in and support the militia (this often causes sutch a panick that the enemy rout)

PS. my militia seargents make up 1/4 of my army in mp and in sp also. they have a great field record 95% wins 5% losses.

many under estimate the power of militia but they are the only unit except passive arbs. that have always been in my army line up, there cheap and at 1200 for a val 4 unit theres no other inf that competes with them for that price.


in short militia CHARGE

PS. tell us if u try these and also witch one worked best. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Tyrac]

Sort of sounds like you are reloading the game after your loss. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif My advice is to take your defeat and do your best to learn from it. The Game is more fun if you do not resort to cheesy tatics to win. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[alby]

whats the valour of the armies involved? these have a huge bearing on things

try use your archers to take out the unit were his general is while you try and hold off his assualt if the gen goes the battle is in the bag

if possible attack him 1st and storm the castle if you win (auto it) b4 the 2 year limit

[Rowan11088]

Well, by now I've accepted this as a loss, I'm too outnumbered on this one. Tyrac, I know it's kinda cheatery to reload, but I'm only doing it for this one, it's my first game and it's a tough one (HRE on normal can be hard...). Once I get the hang of battle a little more, I'll avoid that. Anyway, check out my more recent post, I'm in en even more hopeless situation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jabberwock]

Hello everybody (first post) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Rowan11088, I always enjoy putting the Pope's back up by attacking fellow Catholics. And to put it simply, the French have got to go...
The best form of defence is attack and all that
Go pre-emptive on his ass (even if your inspectors have not determined a smoking catapult exists http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). When your king dies after a long and glorious reign, the Pope will welcome his heir back under the wing of the Holy Mother, and all will be well once more.

[Gregoshi]

Hey Jabberwock, you made it Welcome aboard

[el_slapper]

2 things. First, as catholic, only attack when either your king or the pope is old. Makes excom painless. Second, France's central position makes it the key point of the western part of the map. So, whoever is there, froggies or the ones who vanquished them, will be subject to wars. It simply has too much neighbours. England has no other options to expand. Spain is always tempted after taking the almos out(unless the almos did it, then the case is reversed), HRE has easier land grabs in france too.....

So my beloved country is usually torn in pieces by various wars, no matter who wins. I try to avoid that zone in the beginning of my expansion - unless I'm playing England or France, of course.

[Brutal DLX]

The whole French-German zone is quite instable and needs careful attention and management. If you are the HRE you should amass forces in every border province so you can repell possible French attacks. It is also quite helpful to try allying with the English, sooner or later they will take advantage of France's wars with you and attack.
You just have to hold out until that happens and then you have to decide if you want to take some of France's provinces or if you let the English take all. I recommend taking Toulouse and, if you can, Ile de France.

[econ21]

Rowan: HRE on early is hard. Unless you build up your border force fast, France will attack soon and IIRC can concentrate forces from 3 of his provinces onto one of yours (Lorraine?), so he often can overwhelm you. The terrain in Lorraine is not good for defence either, often pretty flat.

What to do?

1). Up tech your forces.
- Ballistas are worthless - drop them. I like catapults for defence, although they don't do much good, they are cheap, make up the numbers (good for morale) and the sound is reassuring http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
- Most important: switch vanilla spearmen to feudal sergeants asap. They do much better. Then get church, armour and eventually weapon smith upgrades.
- Militia sergeants are worth considering as flankers. Alternatively, bribe some Scandinavian Vikings and use them
- Make sure you have cavalry: early on Royal knights from your princes will do fine; but go for mounted sergeants fast. Good for running down archers and absolutely essential to make sure that once you have beaten a French army, it doesn't come back in a turn or two (pursuit).
- Peasants have no place in battle. Garrison duty only.

2) Make sure you have a good leader. It counts for an awful lot. Look at stars but even more any morale related vices. Once you have whipped the French king a few times, the enemies effectiveness will fall dramatically - the good runner trait. Conversely, if your frontline defence is not strong enough, don't put a good leader there to pick up a bad vice when you are steamrollerd. Better hold him back in a neighbouring province for a counter-attack.

3). Use your economy to break him: HRE has a lot of provinces and hence economic potential, but this also means funds for initial investments are scarce. I prioritise feudal sergeants and building up a few select troop building provinces (esp. those with iron) but other than that devote as much as possible to economic investments: upgrade land in the better Western provinces; mine everything; build up fleets and trade routes (the game breaker); take Sweden.

4). On the battle field, I form an inverted U with around 5 feudal sergeants. 3 Archers and 3 catapults in the centre, a couple of flankers (Eg Vikings) on the flanks, one or two cav held back. Keep the leader out of danger; I've lost many battles by getting carried away with him. Let the enemy come to you; counter-charge with spears when he is very close (else you will break your line and get flanked). Militia sergeants and knights will tear up spearmen eventually; feudals will last a little longer. The trick is to hold with the spearmen and then win on the flanks. France tends not to invest much in spearmen, often fielding lots of weak units like archers, peasants and ballistas, so once you have dealt with his few shock units, you should be ok.

5) Roll with the punches - he may win one battle, but if you have a strong defence line, you can counter-attack and reclaim what you have lost. The AI is not that determined or capable of fighting a real war and often can be defeated strategically (eg he may leave Paris or Flanders with little defence and cannot afford to lose them). If you don't think you can hold the border, only garrison it with enough men to fit in the castle and plan on taking it back next turn.

6) Cheat. I have modded the ammo limit for arrows from 28 to 96; I think it is more historical and it sure makes defending easier

[Jabberwock]

Thanks Gregoshi, for help in getting my account active. Everyone seems awfully polite and helpful around here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Gregoshi]

Just remember your sig Jabberwock... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[rory_20_uk]

Jabberwock, I agree that whatever the cost, however many die, France must be destroyed completely - if they resurface, it must be for 1 year only. Oh and I am of the opinion that the word prisoners and France do not belong in the same sentence - like I want money off the Frence in any case

NO surrender, NO MERCY


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[LeeJackson]

How about you just yell BOO at them really loudly. that should cause them to run for the hills http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Sorry I couldn't help it.

But all the advice that has been posted is great
Good luck

[Alrowan]

hehe.. this all reminds me of Monty pythons search for the holy grail.. those french were just too damn smart http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[el_slapper]

Just saw it last week. A great movie, especially the holy hand grenade. Slightly ahistorical, though.....

Gamewise, France is all or nothing. When you play them, you've got less than 10 years to unite. Against them, your goal is to prevent this to happen. I never played as the HRE, but I'd say conquer the eastern part as soon as the campaign begin, & let the brits finish the job.

[MacBeth]

May I suggest an Inn as the first build in Lorraine and then you can have some pretty nasty mercs waiting for the French when they arrive.