Weapons and Armor

[DragonCat]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the new choices for weapons and armor for online play and the effect it has.

I tried something today that seemed to work well. I armored all my missle units . . . In the inevitable missle shootout, I took FAR less damage than my opponent which helped me win. Now I did have a slight height advantage as well, so nothing scientific.

I've also experiemented with giving extra weapons but can't tell if there is any effect.

My gut feeling is that honor is far preferable to weapons or armor, but there may be some situations where giving armor to all your warrior monks, may be better than yet more honor for one or two other units.

Maybe the slide-rule boys can test this out in custom battles?

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[HATAMOTOKILL]

Good point cat!will test this out(when game arrives?) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[BakaGaijin]

The usefulness compared to Honour really lies in the cost of the upgrades. If you can get +4 attack for the same cost as +2 honour, you may want to upgrade the weapons over the honour in a shock unit, for example.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

TEEELLLLL UUUSSSS MOOOORRREEEE!!!

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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif

[MagyarKhans Cham]

cat why aint a guy like u not focusing on the morale isue instead of looking at weapons and armor...?

[DragonCat]

Plenty of people are discussing the morale issue. I've played over 60 competitive games in the new MI and am finding I am using the armor and weapons options, but not sure how much effect they are having- hence my questions.

As to the morale, It does still happen. I broke someone's army last night and watched them all rout. I've had my own broken. I think the problem is more that units overall have been tweake to be a bit more resilient so that to make them rout you really have to get a real advantage. I am sure you agree that previously everyone routed WAY too easily. So I'm not really having a problem with morale (not saying there isn't a problem- just that I still find it has enough of an effect for me).

But that is a discussion for anothr thread. Anyone else been playing with the weapon and armor issues?

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Algesan]

Cham, what I'm seeing in SP so far (still waiting for the CD key fix) is units hold longer, but when they break, they tend to be gone. The Mongols have a serious advantage here and are far more prone to stick. One possible difference in what I'm seeing and what you are seeing is how honor is coded differently between SP and MP. You get honor 2 units for what honor 0 units cost me. And as I start getting units up to honor 2/3/4 through dojos, fighting and taisho honor I'm seeing more and more of units fighting to the last man.

[DragonCat]

I agree. When you sell down honor in mp they do break and run.

But can we get back to the topic? I don't have many good topics and I think this is one worth pursuing.

How about it folks, any peeps got stats and suggestions on how to use weapons and armor vs honor upgrades for online mp?

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Vanya]

A famous saying on this subject is this:

"An armored army requires smaller baggage trains, for the men can drink the sweat that will accumulate in their metal suits, which will do so vigorously."

And the classic:

"A weapon unused is a useless weapon."

[The Black Ship]

I'll see if I can help out Cat...I've been adding armor upgrades to all my No Dachis, and it seems to help. Where in the old game I'd usually deplete a ND to 20 men in the first assault, or worse I'd get caught out by an archer unit and die in droves...with the new game I can keep them effective for 2 to 3 uses/confrontations. Monks, to be as effective as they once were also need an armor up-grade.

Armor for archers and guns....have to try that, I've been upping their weapons instead.

As for upping armor/weapons or upping honor I'm knd of going by the built in morale rating for the unit...no for ND, WM, HC while yes for YS, YA etc...

Course I haven't been able to play often enough to see if my ideas are good or not http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Well - multiplayer is the kicker - since Mongol units should not be allowed weapon/armor upgrades - doing so seriously ruins the cost balance that is there.
As for single player or skirmish or multiplayer with japanese troops - armor and sword upgrades seem to be equal to a 2 step in honor for the price of 1 - so in essence you can get a level 4 tough unit in a level 2 unit with 1 upgrade to each - they are tougher and the upgrade is cheaper - but they break a bit faster. It really depends on your style. If your willing to keep your guys together so they each support each other - go with the armor and weapons upgrade. If your gonna spread your guys thin - honor will keep them in the fight longer.

Skkzarg

[DragonCat]

Thanks Ship and BSM for bringing back on topic.

BSM- do you have data to support your claims that upgrading the Mongols should not be allowed. The point is moot anyway, since it IS allowed in multiplayer it WILL be done. Just curious what your reasoning is though. Good points about honor vs weapon/armor- but again, do you have any data to support that claim. I would like to THINK its true and it certainly makes sense, but I'd like to see some hard data.

Ship, I don't upgrade weapon on missle units (except maybe the samurai) because it isn't going to help their MISSLE ability, but their MELEE ability- and I don't expect my guns to be in melee- if they are- that very bad. However, upping their armor might make the difference in a gunner's duel (which happens all the time). Hypothetical Example: We each start out with three units of 60 gunners each. After a few broadsides at each other, you know have 15 men in each unit and I have 40. Now THAT would be worth doing!

I will have some time this weekend and will try to run some tests myself- especially the gunner's duel.

Now, the MOST effective missle troops I've seen are the Korean Skirmishers. If you can get them to throw two rounds of javelins, then you have just wiped out a wm or no-dachi unit- no kidding. Those javelins leave a serious mark!!!

Hope to see you online this weekend!

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[DragonCat]

BSM - just read your other post. Very good stuff (as I commented there) and explains your comments above in this post in much greater detail.

I pretty much agree with you overall - but would like to see some hard numbers for rigorous testing to confirm your impressions- solid impressions to be sure.

Also, thanks for getting things on the right track in these areas. There have been far too many hysterical posts based on very limited experiences that have basically gotten it all wrong. People should realize, there have been some major changes and additions and because of that, most of what they know is now wrong. Thinking the game is broken because your old ways no longer work really doesn't make sense. Adapt, improvise, overcome. . . (or whatever that quote is).

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Just got the game today. because of work , i just took the time to explore custom battles (played 5-6) and fooled around with honor, weapons, armour upgrades. So these are just impressions.

These new options in custom and MP add more flexibility, more tactical possibilities to the battles and i like that. Now, with some work and experimenting, i feel that every unit now available can be of some use. It will be easier also to adapt units to your personnal playing style.

For example,the useless Nags in Mp can really soak up missile fire now with few casualties, if upgraded to gold armour, and are able to hold a position.

You want your nd more a bit more resistant to missile fire? Upgrade the armour. Want your ND to be killing machines shock troops in melee upgrade the weapons.

Because morale seems less a factor than the original game, gives a bit more importance to armour and weapons upgrades.

[DragonCat]

Very good point about weapons and armor being worth doing, not that morale isn't the overriding concern. I was worried that honor would be more important to take than either weapons or armor, but it feels like whichever way you go is a viable choice.

Again, we need some hard number crunching to find out if this is indeed true.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."