Boats & Sea Warfare in Medieval

[Mak]

Hi everyone,
Does anyone else find it annoying that it takes 3 turns to build even the most basic of boats.

This can be frustating i try to play the English (don't much like frenchies) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but i try to play it without conquering europe, just playing character as a crusading king. The problem is that even after conquering France i find it very hard to build a large fleet, without turning each province to ship building (1 ship every 3 turns)

The mechanics of linking each sea area with a boat to allow movement seems daft and unrealistic. Troops should be transported in each boat. This would also mean losing a boat with troops inside very upsetting. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[MonkeyMan]

Hi Mak welcome to the .org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

In terms of the sea travel yes I do find it a bit annoying sometimes. However I think the way the game represents fleets is more in terms of your military ships. i.e. there are merchant and other vessles in the seas but they will only do what you want if you have a military precence and protect them. So you gain trade from ensuring a sea route is safe from enemy vessels and others. In theory these lesser ships also move your men in an invasion too.

As such your men are not moved by your ships but by the ships they protect. Basically the system is more a representation of your naval spending and infrastructure. A ship should more be seen as an invesment in your naval power overall, in terms of facilities, supplies, people and vesseles than actually as 1 physical ship.

I prefer looking at it in this way anyway. Perhaps you can suggest how you would have like to have seen it done in such a way that it improves the game and adds to the immersion.

Enjoy your stay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Hi Mak, and welcome to the Org....

I agree, the ship building is a little stressful,England is an excellent selection, and also my fav for the same reason as your.....

you might try playing as the Byzans on early, just of the south cost of asia minor are three islands, these are excellent for building ships....and you dont really notice how long it takes, as you have so many provinces to expand into.........

Just a thought.......

[eXistenZi]

Well ships DID take a long time to build so it's sort of realistic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[HindSight2020]

So far, I've only had the choice of building the lowest two types of ships. They take three years -- just like you said. I can't imagine that even the largest Medieval ships took three years. I agree that the smaller ships should take less. Maybe it is some kind of balancing thing they did in order to limit the effects of navies early on. It also affects revenues, though it would still be a while to build a port and a trading post and a navy.

Has anyone built higher tech ships? Do all ships take 3 years to build?

[Mak]

Ships may have taken a long time to build but so do large units of well trained soldiers.

The game displays these ships as a single ship and uses the singular form in their description so they are simply not fleets.

The changes i would like to see are early boats being quick in production. Later on in the game powerful sepcialised war galleys which do take longer to build and thereby are treasured as assets of the kingdom.

Character could also be added by each ship being named. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Jeff]

Yep building a fleet can be very frustrating. I like playing as England as well and I have to get 2 or 3 provinces building ships just so I can get a decent trade income going. That really takes away from building other troops so that I can expand into Europe at the same time. Also I haven't seen anything but the two lowest ships as well so I don't know the building times for the Galleys and such.

[Jazzman]

i think for game balance, it needs to be at least that hard to build ships, i also prefer to look at it as a fleet of ships, no way one barque is going to guard a whole sea area. Even with these restrictions its pretty easy to eventually build up a huge shipping network and bring in loads of florins through trade to keep your armies well fed, i.e., until you conquer so much that you have no one to trade with anymore.

[SmokWawelski]

It seems that all the people just build the cheap vesels. The tech needed to get the later is too high (that is my experience)? I think that you need the largest castle to get the canon ships...

As far as military usefulness, the numerical advantage seems to be the deciding factor in sea battles.

Maybe we could mod them and see how the game plays? I would assume that it would be very easy, just like with the rest of the units.... Will the AI know how to use them? I doubt this... But the modding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif idea got me going, maybe I shall try it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Shahed]

I just attacked a fleet of 6 Italian ships: mix of fire galleys and dromons. I used 1 carrack and 2 cogs, admiral in command is 4 star.

Result: 6 enemy ships destroyed, lost 1 ship (carrack)

Edit: playing as English

[Dogmeat]

hey all, i'm new here As you can no doubt tell.
I think its a good thing to have ships take a long time to build, for balancing aspects only. If it only took 1 turn to build 1 small ship, then you'll have control of all the sea in europe in no time. Though it is frustrating, it is worth it when you get all the trade income piling in.
I find it annoying that i rarely win sea battles unless i seriously outnumber the enemy ships. My caravels always get thrashed by the cheapest foreign ships. Its only when i get carracks that i start dominating the oceans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Shahed]

What I do in early game is set a trio of barques, dhows, dromons, at strategic points e.g Straits of Gibraltar.

Later in the game I team caravels and dromons or barques together. Typically I have one slow ship and 2 faster ones.
For Muslims, A baggala, and 2 dhows works.

Later still I team 1 carrack with 2 cogs, possibly a barque. Muslim: 2 Booms, 2 Dhows.

The purpose of these fleets is not to maintain trade as one can imagine. It is to eliminate the enemy shipping. I typically can get away with 1-2 ship fleets for trade maintenance.

If confronted with a single fast ship i.e dromon, I break down the fleet into singles and all attack on the same turn.

Don't be surprised though I have already seen a dhow sinking a caravel.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Lord Of Storms]

Quote[/b] (SmokWawelski @ April 16 2003,10:23)]It seems that all the people just build the cheap vesels. The tech needed to get the later is too high (that is my experience)? I think that you need the largest castle to get the canon ships...

As far as military usefulness, the numerical advantage seems to be the deciding factor in sea battles.

Maybe we could mod them and see how the game plays? I would assume that it would be very easy, just like with the rest of the units.... Will the AI know how to use them? I doubt this... But the modding http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif idea got me going, maybe I shall try it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Modding the stats for ships is relatively simple, with Lord Gnomes unit editor you can change range, production time,attack rating,defense rating,speed, and strength. Also the periods in which they become available can be modded along with the building requirements. Look on the Org's download page for Gnome_Unit_Build_Proj_Editorv2.0 this program lays out the files needed to be changed in a very simple format , just edit in your changes save the file and voila custom Navy. Any troubles feel free to E-Mail me . http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Popeye]

Well, I got this game this week...I guess I played STW for a year and a half or more. So I'm new, but I'm not new. I've played two campaigns, one as England and one as Turkey, both Early Normal, both wins around 1210.

I may be using a cheesy tactic, but I haven't found any posts about it at all, so you tell me.

I pursue from day one gaining absolute maritime exclusivity. Not dominance. Exclusivity. That means, if its a ship and ain't mine, it has to die. Allies? My real friends wouldn't put a boat on my water, know what I mean?

Not only does this ensure that I'm the only one that gets trade income, it means that I can reduce my borders to a small number of land provinces, while my enemies are vulnerable almost anywhere on the map (once I occupy all sea zones, and keep them clear.)

I've started developing a few techniques to exploit this dominance, including trapping a king by attacking the province he's in, and any adjacent ones he might flee to before/after battle, and attacking weakly defended rear production zones.

Anyway, the AI doesn't seem to oppose me doing this in any significant way, and once I have this dominance, It seems to me a sure win.

Comments?

[SmokWawelski]

Quite an aggresive stance there Popeye, I could not play like that...

[HindSight2020]

Quote[/b] ]I pursue from day one gaining absolute maritime exclusivity. Not dominance. Exclusivity. That means, if its a ship and ain't mine, it has to die. Allies? My real friends wouldn't put a boat on my water, know what I mean?

And I thought I was aggressive I make it a practice of trying to have a ship in every space I can. Of course, that develops trade routes. I will not attack neutral ships. They may be my trading partners. I like the money. However, there are times when neutral ships suddenly attack my ships, and I have a new enemy. Then I have no mercy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

I like to use overwhelming force in battles, so I don't spend too much florin on upgrading my navy. I think that in order to have cogs and the other more advanced ships, you need to upgrade from Castle to Keep to Citadel and upgrade the Dock facilities. I'm spending my florin on large groups of armies. The other factions do not have time to advance their tech enough for me to need anything higher than Saracen spearmen (I'm finishing an Egypt game now).

When you say that you won games by 1210, do you mean that you controlled the whole map? Or did you accept a lesser victory -- having controlled 60% or more. I had the lesser victory offered to me around 1210. I guess I'm slow compared to some, faster compared to others. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jxrc]

Regarding sea battles, I often have the same problem. I cannot destroy to last ship of an ennemy navy. Usually the last dromon starts coming and going between the two same squares and even though I attack it each turn it is not possible to engage it. Needless to say that this damn ship is always place nicely to ruin all my trade ...

The only solution is then to destroy the entire faction...

A shame since it forces you to go for all-out conquest ...

[Popeye]

In the first game I was offered the 60% victory about 1205. I took it because, being the first game, I realized a few features or aspects I had overlooked. That, and wanting to do something different had me restart.

The second game I took Turks, as they start without a coast, and immediately attacked to get one. I managed to capture the Egyptian King in the process. That was very profitable.

I ran into the issue you mentioned with one remaining Italian ship that I couldn't catch. It was being a nuisance, so I made kamikaze raids and destroyed Italy, and the ship ceased to be. I had everything but Denmark (3) and Novgorod (3) in 1205.

My current game is not as easy, but still on Normal. I'm the Spanish, and right now it's 1170. The Pope is neutral but doesn't seem to like me, and the French, Byzzies and Italians are at war with me. I own the sea, though, except for two Byz ships in the Black Sea. The French are Excomm, and down to four provinces which I'll own within 5 years.

I already own Wessex, and Ireland is rebel, so I'm not worried about the Brits anymore. I don't have borders with the Danes, Poles, or Hungarians, so I'm not worried about them at the moment, either. The Sicilians are stuck on one island with a huge army and no navy, so they aren't going anywhere for a while. Egypt is hostile, but small enough that they won't attack, and makes a good buffer against the Byzzies for the time being. The Germans are on a mad crusade and aren't even defending my borders, but I don't feel like a new enemy just yet.

The problem, after the French, is the Pope. if I attack the Italians, he'll Excommunicate me, and then the Germans, Poles, and Hungarians may come into play. The only thing to do is finish France, and see if the Pope warms up to me. If not, I'll take down the Pope, and then deal with the Italians, and hopefully be able to go after the Germans before they can rebuild (since their crusade will end when I remove the Pope.)

Once that's done, I foresee making three simultaneous attacks against the Byzantines from the sea. Byz can't sustain losses like I can, because I took away the two Mediterranean islands, then immediately maxed taxes and vacated the island, burning everything. The ensuing revolts left him with two huge armies to support that can't move. At the same time, my own economy runs a surplus due to an early focus on income enhancements.

Should all that come together as planned, I'll have six rivals with 3 or fewer territories, plus whatever the Hungarians and Poles will amount to, and I expect the year will be about 1205.

Of course, I realize this is normal mode, and it would be insane to think I could do it this fast on a higher degree of difficulty. Next time....next time....

[Gregoshi]

Well blow me down I'd recognize those muskels anywhere Welcome to the Org Popeye. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Ah-guh-guh-guh-guh-guh. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[HindSight2020]

Yez. Yez. Ze French. Zey are difficult, are zey not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

My first total win was with the Egyptians on Normal -- which according to the game was easier than Normal. Turks are harder as are ze French. Facing the English, Germans and Italians is no fun. Right now I'm playing as Italians. The Spanish have taken almost everything I don't have, but they took the parts that have higher income. We'll both be excommunicated before it's over.

I'm trying to build a navy and get some trade going. Not sure it's going to work, because no likes the fact that I took over the Roman province from the pope.

I think that my aggressiveness comes from playing StarCraft so long. StarCraft didn't encourage you to develop any diplomatic abilities. It was Kill Kill Kill So when I played STW, and now MTW, I tend to bludgeon my way through.

[SmokWawelski]

Lord of Storms: I played soem more with the boats over the last week, and I think that the stats are OK, the probem is that the best ships are available very late in the game. You have to have Citadel and Fortress to build them, and you have to wait for compass. So in the sense they show up in the game after pikeman, gendarmes and gothic knights...which is late, and probably after you have made some serious water fighting.

I think that there can be a solution with downgrading the building requirements for these. However, we still need to wait for compass to be discovered. DOes anyone know how to work around that, or change that date?

[Lord Of Storms]

Quote[/b] (SmokWawelski @ April 22 2003,09:48)]Lord of Storms: I played soem more with the boats over the last week, and I think that the stats are OK, the probem is that the best ships are available very late in the game. You have to have Citadel and Fortress to build them, and you have to wait for compass. So in the sense they show up in the game after pikeman, gendarmes and gothic knights...which is late, and probably after you have made some serious water fighting.

I think that there can be a solution with downgrading the building requirements for these. However, we still need to wait for compass to be discovered. DOes anyone know how to work around that, or change that date?
You can eliminate the need for the Compass altogether by modding it out of the Crusader_Build_prod_13txt file just delete the need for compass in column 27 of Gnomeunit editor . You can mod pretty much everything that has to do with the ships stats and building requirments between 2 files the one I mentioned above and Crusader_Unit_prod_11 txt file you can alter the time to build, period available, factions available to. The list goes on.. As long as you use Lord Gnomes unit editor it makes the process quite simple. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Popeye]

By the way, I learned something important about sea invasions I'll share...

Never have the King do this. If you don't capture the port, he'll have no possible way to get back, your subjects will become unruly because he suddenly has no influence over them whatsoever. Preventing revolts will be distracting for several years while you correct this situation.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Popeye @ April 22 2003,11:41)]By the way, I learned something important about sea invasions I'll share...

Never have the King do this. If you don't capture the port, he'll have no possible way to get back, your subjects will become unruly because he suddenly has no influence over them whatsoever. Preventing revolts will be distracting for several years while you correct this situation.
Well said... Kings are a royal pain in the butt, but you cna always send one of your princes or a royal blood general to do the dirty work for him.

[SmokWawelski]

Lord of Storms: I did some modding even without the app, but have it now, and it DOES make the life a lot easier. I will go through the txt files to see what can be changed without screwing up the game too much (balance).

Before I will depart to do it though, I will look into the WesW (?) MOD: For the King and Country, or something like that, that is getting a lot of good reviews. I will see what he did in that area. As I finished my last French campaign this morning, I might just install this one and play with it for some time now

I will keep you posted on what worked for me best

[Popeye]

I've given this ship situation some more thought today.

Frankly, I think naval power in MTW can put you in the same kind of position having a half dozen Geishas did in STW. It decides the game.

Part of the problem is that it's too easy to do it. I see three approaches as a solution.

A single ship should not be able to prevent all trade in a zone the size of the Eastern Mediterranean. I would suggest either let each ship reduce trade (for enemies) by a fraction, only counting those ships in excess of the enemy warships in that zone. It's ridiculous for one ship to block all of my trade, when I have 6 of my own in the same zone. I think I'd favor 20% reduction per ship in excess of enemy ships.

Another approach is to further divide the sea zones. There just aren't enough of them to reflect the difficulty of policing the seas.

Third, make a Mercenary unit available (say with a port + 2d level trading post + Inn?) for a Smuggler. This would be a ship that is VERY difficult to engage in sea combat, and where it exists, that sea lane is open for trade to the owner.

Sea power needs a little work. The tactical improvements over STW are astounding, but so far it looks like sea power eclipses all other considerations in the campaigns.