Artillery

[chuachinsoon]

Hi all Got another question. Are all the artillery units immovable? I haven't been using artillery in my SP game and I've just decided to give it a shot (in 1325). Wondering which is the best one to use for battlefields (I normally don't siege castles - either withdraw and reattack province or bribe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
BTW, just got my first handgunner - the fear factor is sure cool, the AI ran away just as they reached my spears at the end of a bridge. Poor AI. A bridge too far...

[chilling]

I've always found them a waste of time. You're better off using the slot for an extra horse unit.

[HindSight2020]

It always puzzled me how the artillery worked. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Then I read the manual. I have to get out a magnifying glass, so I usually avoid it. Full speed ahead is my motto. Anyway, the manual says that the artillery can be moved before they take their first shot. As soon as they take aim at anything, they cannot be moved. You can change what they are aiming at, but you can't move them. That's how I understood it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Efrem Da King]

No artillery is moveable. You set them up in the deploy stage but then no movement. There is a moveable cannon in the napoleonic mod,(made by lord krazy and co.) which can be found here: www.napoleonic-mod.tk (http://www.napoleonic-mod.tk)

[Parmenion]

I think they're useless too unless it's in a castle assault. Maybe if you're defending and you have a cool hilltop which you can surround with defensive units, then you can mount them behind the protecting troops. I've never done it though as I would much rather have an extra unit in that slot - a cav unit is much more valuable on the battlefield to be honest.

I faced a defending AI army once that had 3 trebuchets in front of it's main troops. I marched (normally) towards them whilst they rained stony death down upon my army. It was very impressive and scared me half to death, but none of my units routed and I lost 8 men in total. Needless to say the first casualties of the enemy were the crew of all three trebuchets, followed by the rest of the AI army. After that I thought it pointless to build them myself.

This is another thing I hope improves in RTW. I want to be able to build siege towers and rams too, then I can reduce Carthage to a smouldering ruin full of burnt corpses and wailing women.... mwaa, mwaa, mwaaaaa.......

[GilJaysmith]

Artillery can be moved anywhere within your deployment zone during the deployment phase, but after you end deployment, the best that they can do is turn in place - if they have that attribute. The bigger pieces like mangonels can't turn - watching the mouseover text will tell you which ones can and which ones can't.

During deployment you can use the mouse cursor to determine whether an artillery piece has a theoretically clear shot at a given target. It might go green (which is OK) or red (which isn't). This is calculated with perfect accuracy; as you'll have noticed, artillery is less than totally accurate, although this improves with valour and the number of shots fired at the same target.

Artillery doesn't move because we didn't have enough time to program the AI to make it move sensibly. Also it didn't look very natural.

Rome's siege weaponry is much more exciting.

Gil ~ CA

[Alrowan]

dont tease us about rome :-p

[Efrem Da King]

And I thought you weren't on the project anymore?
Or was that VI? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Papewaio]

When it comes to teasing he is always on the project http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Thanks for the info GilJay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

----

Art is useful in defense for the fear factor or parking a ballista in a castle will generally give it the 'this will not fall unless assaulted'... very nice if you give the castle the two defensive bonuses for whatever type it is... that way the enemy has to attack to take the castle and will take a disproportionate number of casualities... sort of an inverse auto-resolve seige.

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ April 12 2003,15:50)]When it comes to teasing he is always on the project ;)
Mmmmm... thanks for my new signature, Papewaio ;-)

[chuachinsoon]

Thanks guys I'll probably lay off making siege engine related buildings from now on. At the most, use it for defence. I would like to see how the serpentine fares in action though. Didn't get to see it in my previous SP game. Finished it before the serpentine could come out into existence.

[SmokWawelski]

Trebuchets are poor as anti personal weapons yes? But IMHO, the catapult is pretty OK for that role. Artillery pieces also cause fear, so it is not only the cannonballs that count. I just like to have at least one of them handy...

[MonkeyMan]

I'll be interested to see what happens with the much anticipated Organ Gun in terms of anti personnel. Just so long as it seems realistic. Could be a fun new addition.

[Dogmeat]

i always found the demi-cannon things pretty useful for when i'm attacking a large force. If the defending team waits for you to advance, pounding them with cannonballs really gives them a headache. The hit-ratio is terrible, put if i aim for the unit in the middle of the enemy forces, i'm bound to hit something. Well i find em useful anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Morten viking]

I was defending a bridge once, and happened to have a hill in my back and a bombard laying around. The traffic jam on the enemy side was quite impressive, but after firing all the cannon balls I had, just a handfull of enemy troops had gone down. However, with a better anti personell weapon and some accuracy, artillery in bridge scenarios could be devastating. Should work fine for clearing the enemy from the other side when you are attacking as well. May give you room to cross the bridge without being peppered with missile fire.

MV

[Efrem Da King]

Bombards aren't anti-personal use serpentines or demi cannons like me. Absolutly deadly.

[pilot]

I use demi-culverins in most of my battles and they usually work really good to weaken the enemy line before my advance. They've got a really good range and a couple of times I was able to hit the enemy general(and once the almohad kalifah).
If you aim 3 or 4 cannons at the middle of the enemy then you can cause a lot of casualties, in my experience.

[Efrem Da King]

Welcome to the forums pilot.



You may not like it here or you may get along it dependds on your politics.

[The_Emperor]

I find that Artillery is quite useful if your a catholic faction attacking a catholic enemy province.
(chances are the pope will warn you the moment you attack the province and you will face excommunictation within a turn unless you assault the castle the year after moving in&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I never have artillery inside a main army, but rather a small army with them in following behind my main force... they can be useful in defence, but fortunately you can always wwithdraw them from the battle and bring on decent reinforcements

[Gregoshi]

Welcome pilot. I hope you had a good flight here. Speaking of flight - I've got to catch up with my army...

You are the expert Efrem. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Efrem Da King]

Quote[/b] ]You are the expert Efrem.

When did this happen?

Well anyhow the past is the past and I'm a good little modder now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . Lord Krazy showed me the light.

[Captain Fishpants]

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ April 12 2003,06:18)]...

Artillery doesn't move because we didn't have enough time to program the AI to make it move sensibly. Also it didn't look very natural.

Rome's siege weaponry is much more exciting.

Gil ~ CA
And, of course, given that most medieval artillery was either carried around as a kit of parts to be built on-site (the catapults) or was so heavy that it needed dozens of oxen to pull (the cannons), there wasn't much chance to move it anyway once in position. The skill of a good artillery commander was in picking his spot and his killing ground.

And Gil's right: some of the siege weaponry and artillery in Rome is a lot more exciting. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MikeB ~ CA

[Mak]

You all seem rather down on artillary personally i find nothing more fun than blowing the enemy to pieces with a cannon from afar. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

True the casualties are not great but you are not taking any great risks yourself yet in the battle.

Artillary has three great advantages when used properly
1. No risk of being outmanouvered (attack from distance)
2. Fear causing and try to attack the enemy general, trust me he will run a lot quicker if you stick a cannon ball up his **** http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
3. Your continuousprojectiles of iron will force him to meet your army on your terms e.g. you get the high ground and he has to march to you.

Demi Cannons are what you need to build and even catapults will force him to move.

[Jabberwock]

I agree with Mak artillery is helpful to break up formation, and make the stupid AI come towards you when you are on the attack.
Demi-culverins is the point at which they start to become properly useful. I only carry a few art seperately before that, for defensive and siege purposes.
The range of the cannons is enormous. Best thing though, is to get your horse archers scouts out, then follow the projectiles into the midst of the enemy. Imagine the chaos
Mwah hahahahaaaa mwahhaha MWAH HAHAHAHAAAAA

[Mak]

Cheers Jabberwock knew I wasn't the only one to know the true value of having a big gun in your pocket. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[LeeJackson]

Personally I don't use artillery in battles but I do find it very helpful in segies.

I usually make one or two stacks of a bunch of artillery units and have them travel around to provinces where I am laying siege. They really help you reduce your casualties.

[Asmodeus]

I love artillery although I havent found a great deal of use for Ballista's yet - I'll have to practice with them a bit more. Catapults can be extremely effective though. Obviously for castle assaults - pick your spot carefully: in set up mode move catapult to extreme range and move closer until your mouse pointer turns green on the walls you want to hit - that way you'll stay out of balista/arrow range. For big castles with catapult towers etc use something longer ranged like a trebuchet.

Artillery becomes MUCH more effective with increased valour and because of small crews this is easy to come by - just bring one or two to each battle early on and you will soon have lethally acurate weapons. They need to kill troops for valour though not just walls.

Stick em on high ground for incredible range.

Stick em in woods to prevent enemy archers/ballistas picking off the crew - doesnt seem to do much to the accuracy or range.

I've caused terrible damage to enemy either defending or attacking a river crossing with a couple of catapults covering the bridges - either to kill attacking infantry or decimating rows of stationary archers and spearmen.

I kicked the Mongols ass without any cavalry by forming a wall of spearmen at the edge of a wood guarding 2 catapults and 3 or 4 units of vikings of FMAA. They first wanted to pick off my spearmen with horse archers but i kept pounding them at long range so they charged heavy cavalry into the spears and were cut to pieces by vikings etc. I took almost no losses.

I will have a practice with ballistas because i'm sure they must be more useful than they appear at first.

[Popeye]

Want to mention a few things I'm doing with artillery in castle assaults.

While I haven't found artillery terribly effective in open terrain, and potentially useful if deployed and protected properly in bridge provinces, and haven't had the experience as a defender in a castle, for the castle attack, they are marvelous.

There are two rules to using them effectively on castle assaults:
1) No less than three units, the more the merrier. You just can't do enough damage to be worth having them with less.

2) Use them on walls first, and arrow towers second, and never gates.

The reason for opening walls instead of gates is simple. When you open a gate, your troops have to pass through the open gate, where they'll be blocked by even a single small unit, and will be subject to endless missile fire, magnifying losses. Opening a wall makes a huge, less defensible breach, meaning you can actually employ localized numerical superiority to overcome the units inside the wall faster.

In addition, it's difficult to avoid placing the artillery where they can hit the inner gate without exposing it to missile fire. That's going to be expensive. However, if you position the artillery on a side of the castle, you can be out of arrow range, and be able to open walls to both the inner and outer yards. With three artillery pieces, you can knock down two walls, and do significant damage to the tower in between them, cutting down on that pesky missile fire.

The biggest shortcoming of artillery is inaccuracy. That's why I don't bother with a single piece, it's a battery or forget it. I also avoid small or moving targets. Walls are ideal.

Smashing walls eliminates a lot of the advantages of defending in a castle. Instead of being a secure place to defend from, it becomes a trap for the defender.

[SmokWawelski]

Quote[/b] ]Stick em in woods to prevent enemy archers/ballistas picking off the crew - doesnt seem to do much to the accuracy or range.

Very interesting: I shall try this on my own

[Asmodeus]

Quote[/b] (SmokWawelski @ April 23 2003,19:10)]
Quote[/b] ]Stick em in woods to prevent enemy archers/ballistas picking off the crew - doesnt seem to do much to the accuracy or range.

Very interesting: I shall try this on my own
I've used this successfully with catapults and trebuchets so far, i'll try the cannons, bombards etc I think only the high firing weapons work ok.