View Full Version : Training Time and Costs of elite units
MiloMoria
04-18-2003, 23:32
I'll start off by saying, yes I know I can mod all this but...
I am curious as to why CA allowed Elite units to be trained in one year, and not cost all that much more then your basic units. The problem I've noticed is in the later game there is no reason to produce the lesser units. Now perhpas my understanding of medevil armies is off by I allways thought that such elite units were still the exception not the norm even into the later periods. The onl possible reason I see if the 'fun' factor.(Who wants to play with spearmen for 400 years)
One that really sticks out is various Janissary units; I thought they took a very long time to train(Special class raised from birth for warfare)
eXistenZi
04-19-2003, 05:32
Yep you raise a very good point...but if this was modelled realisticly, it would not be fun at all (taking ~10 years to create an elite unit).
ShadesPanther
04-19-2003, 13:58
And it sorta recreates the Jannisary problem making it take ages to build all the required buildings and only allowed in one provinces (unless you cheat a bit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
and finally you end up with Janissaries a bit like baby food, soft and mushy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Janissaries were produced from the Devshirme. A system of human taxation on the provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Youth between the ages of 8 and 20 were to be submitted as slaves (considered an honor, to be a part of the Elite) of the Sultan.
Sultan Osman Ghazi
http://www.osmanli700.gen.tr/english/eng_images/album/port02.jpg
Mehmet in Constantinople. The white caps are Janissary.
http://www.osmanli700.gen.tr/english/eng_images/album/Paint10.jpg
The origin of the Devshirme is not clear. The Byzantines forcibly recruited 1 in 5 children from Slav and Albanian areas. What is clear is that the Devshirme emerged in Turkish administration after the first Janissary Ortas (battalions) were raised to supplement the Sultan's Ghulam (slave or servant) Cavalry and Yaya infantry.
Once selected the young recruit would go through an extensive training program lasting on average of between 8-10 years. Primarily the Janissary would be trained in religion, the arts and litreture at the Sultan's Palace Colleges. Specifcs included, Arabic, Turkish, Persian litreture, as well as military pursuits such as javelins, horse riding, archery. Depending on the aptitute of the recruit, he would be selected for different braches of the establishment.
Those with the greatest leadership capacities, continued with their knightly education, whereas the majority were transferred to military education. Once the training was complete a Janissary could be a warrior, architect, mathematician, administrator, artist, musician, or a combination of different abilities.
Not to mention a soldier of course.
A recruit in traning, notice the punisher with drawn sword.
http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/Training.jpg
Kongamato
04-19-2003, 23:57
Didnt the Janissary Corps organize itself on the model of a kitchen? I seem to remember that the tall white caps carried wooden spoons, and the soldiers wheeled giant soup pots around for food and if the cauldrons were lost in battle the unit was permanently shamed.
Kongamato
04-20-2003, 01:31
That PM thingy is weird...
In case it was not recieved...
Weird stuff, I found it from some archaic links.
Must not be true.
Search for things like Janissaries and soup within these links, it may need some searching to find the facts, as the articles are long.
link one (http://www.florilegium.org/files/CULTURES/Jannissaries-msg.html)
link 2 (http://aok.heavengames.com/thegame/civs/turks.shtml)
link 3 (http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/special/2000/feast/facts.html)
link 4 (http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/mar/weapons.htm)
Using the PM is easy. Anyway thanks for the links.
I have some pics I will post tomorrow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Gregoshi
04-20-2003, 04:38
I'd have to agree with MiloMoria on this one. The rarer these elite units are, the more valuable they become. Cranking out high tech units like they were peasants just doesn't seem right to me.
Elite units should cost time and money to train.
Once trained their combat performance must be that of elite soldiery, not that of peasantry.
Gregoshi
04-21-2003, 05:18
Amen brother http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
MiloMoria
04-21-2003, 22:20
Quote[/b] (eXistenZi @ April 18 2003,21:32)]Yep you raise a very good point...but if this was modelled realisticly, it would not be fun at all (taking ~10 years to create an elite unit).
I don't know if it would lose the fun factor. The elite units would need to bumped up a bit in power to compensate for such a high cost and training time, morale boost to improve their staying power. These units would then be used, at least IMHO, how they were historiclly.
You would then have a choise, raise a fast army of consript levy's or work your way towards an army that has no match on the field.
Gregoshi
04-22-2003, 03:46
Imagine the aggony of deciding when to commit your elite troops to the battle. Do you risk them to a losing cause and try to turn things around? Right now elite units are like the Lays potato chip line: Munch all you want, we'll make more. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
MiloMoria
04-22-2003, 04:59
Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ April 21 2003,19:46)]Imagine the aggony of deciding when to commit your elite troops to the battle. Do you risk them to a losing cause and try to turn things around? Right now elite units are like the Lays potato chip line: Munch all you want, we'll make more. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Exactly Perhaps I should learn to mod the files... Would anyone be intrested in such a mod?
_Tim
A.Saturnus
04-22-2003, 10:34
I think the prob is the whole recruitment system. Knights for example weren`t produced at all by the warlord. They just followed his call to arms (and didn`t get money for it). European rulers had no standing army at that time. In case of war they just relied on the service of their vassals, gathered militia or payed mercenaries. I guess Muslim rulers had totally different ways to recruit an army (janissaries, ghulam, mamluks). Would be interested if the game would reflect this.
Good points
The Janissaries were precisely that: an attempted solution to the problem of Feudal allegiances. A standing hard core Elite that could run the Empire administratively, and fight for the Empire in time sof war, independently or with Feudal support.
MiloMoria
04-22-2003, 22:08
Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ April 22 2003,02:34)]I think the prob is the whole recruitment system. Knights for example weren`t produced at all by the warlord. They just followed his call to arms (and didn`t get money for it). European rulers had no standing army at that time. In case of war they just relied on the service of their vassals, gathered militia or payed mercenaries. I guess Muslim rulers had totally different ways to recruit an army (janissaries, ghulam, mamluks). Would be interested if the game would reflect this.
Well I think to make it work in the constraints of the game one has to consider the 'training' costs the price of setting up a feudal lord(title, land, etc) The maintence costs are the cost of the taxes he keeps and the cost to keep him loyal and his men trained.
Too bad there isn't a way for one to have units cost very little when in the home provence(ie not active, administrating the land grant) and then have support costs jump when you call the units up for battle or campaign into enemy teritory.
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