Korean Skirmishers-- the new God Unit

[Khan7]

Screw those worthless Warrior Monks!! Who needs them? Now you must fill your armies with the God Unit of the hour, Korean Skirmishers. I shall explain:

They hold their own in melee against any unit. They will defeat consistently ANY cavalry unit, even Naginata Cavalry. If they can get about 3 volleys of spears off at their foe, they will defeat ANY unit. They are relatively invulnerable to missle fire. Kensai are expensive, and die eventually and therefore even they are not an effective Japanese counterunit.

I've been playing vs. computer with armies of ALL skirmishers. So far have soundly defeated the comp in all cases. Haven't tested versus human yet, and won't for a while (savoring the campaigns at the moment :-P), but someone could try this.

So, to sum up: Korean Skirmishers = Roman Legions = INVINCIBLE

Is this the intention?!?!?!?! I dunno, I think this will shut up anyone who was whining about the wacked out Warrior Monks!

My analysis-- the Javelins are too durned effective, especially when you compare them with what guns (a purportedly superior weapon) do in this game in the same situation.. if they get to launch them all, the enemy unit will be at 15% to 0% strength.. if they can get off 3 or 4 he'll be out 2/3 of his men.. and they have a firing rate like ALMOST like a Winchester!

Also I would think that their godliness when dealing with Cavalry in melee should be looked at again.. if you want to equate these skirmishers with Roman Legionaires, I would estimate they got it about right-- a head on charge will inflict damage but will ultimately be futile (the heavy cavalry/naginata cavalry in this game are not cataphracts, and it was not until the development of the cataphract that legionaires could be easily frontally defeated by cavalry). But are these skirmishers SUPPOSED to be legionaires? (?)

It also is kinda wacky to see the fighting animation for these KS (which is a little man pounding his fists), and see them take down the vaunted horsemen of the Hojo..

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear what people have to say on this.

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Khan7

[JAG]

Quote Originally posted by Khan7:

My analysis-- the Javelins are too durned effective, especially when you compare them with what guns (a purportedly superior weapon) do in this game in the same situation.. [/QUOTE]

now to my thinking i thought that spears in the game had a smaller range than the gun
is this not a disadvantage? can u not peper them at long range with guns then send in the charge i don't see y u would not be able to do this? tell me if wrong. also guns to my knowledge at this time were not i repeat NOT a superiror weapon to the spears here r my reasons

1) quality of troops: the spearmen would have been trained for years with spears thier fathers grandfathers etc used them so they would be fully adept with them in comparison totaly to the gunmen, the guns were new to them, never been used by other generations.

2)relibilty: guns that were provided for the japenese were not of the best quality (correct if wrong) they were guilty of not working and breaking where as a spear would always be ready and waiting and u knew it would not break!

for these reasons i think that the guns were not a superior weapon (at this point in time) so at short distance the spearmen maybe should do some serious damage but if they r very good in combat i am with u on that. . they should not stand a chance against a cav charge of any sort! they were skirmishers not a devastating fighting machiene!!


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Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

[Yoko Kono]

guns and skirmishers never meet in s:we
they are from different time periods
skirmishers stand up well to xbow (prolly due to their shield) but seem to fail to hold it over there heads when under arrow fire
its possible to whittle their numbers down to less than half with archers before they are close enuff to hit u
then a charge by the archers will finish them off, with the archers taking very very little damage, the one volley of spears will almost certainly `miss` due to the speed of archers charging
On expert skirmishers struggle against ANY japanese H2H unit any all cav will decimate this unit
its spears tho devasting are only of great use agaisnt yari samurai as all other infantry and cav can run under them due to their greater speed
this unit is of particualr use against `camping` defenders and units advancing en-masse where it can do the most damage
unlike monks in the original stw however, it does have a counter and cannot as such be regarded as a godlike unit
its is, i must agree, the `diamond in the rough` a welcome suprise unit that many rubbished before the games release

Yoko

[Yoko Kono]

I have just tested the efectiveness of skirmishers and was somwhat suprised by the results
on green fine day both units at hon 2, no armour no weapons
the skirmishers decimated both heavy, nagi and yari cav without even firing a single volley leaving me to assume they receive the same bonuses against cav that yari troops do
they did however get mauled by dachi in my tests
hmm
this unit intrigues me again
my earl;ier observations were from my experiences using this unit and fighting against it on the SP campaign and i may have underestimated its strength
headon cav charges at this unit will sustain heavy losses (often up to 10) in the intial charge and will then be systimatically slaughtered
one to watch out for in mp
damn these mongols are tuff
not only are the skirms great,the heavies solid and the light super fast with bows but the guardsmen make excellant melee soldiers and they can bring in grenadiers
so what if they have a dogy right arm

[Khan7]

JAG: First of all, we are dealing with Javelins, which are short spears weighted and designed for throwing, with some use in melee. When I'm talking about guns here I am referring to their very disappointing performance at close ranges (you would expect a volley at point blank range to pretty much take out an entire rank or more of attackers, instead they take out usually about half that). But I've seen a full javelin volley take out 15 or even 20 guys. At any rate, I was just making a comparison.

Yoko Kono: What version of the expansion did YOU buy?? In MY version, arrows are completely impotent versus skirmishers, and a single h3 archer unit on a little rise firing at a single h2 skirmisher unit from the longest range up to the point where they stop and throw their javelins takes out ONE SINGLE JAVELINEER. And you really CANNOT find out ANYTHING or say ANYTHING if all of the tests you have done are on expert difficulty!!! Do you not realize that this skews the combat statistics rather severely?? The odds are completely even on Normal difficulty, and it is on the equivalent of this difficulty that multiplayer battles (the most significant battles) are played. Yes, I'm sure your skirmishers get torn to pieces on EXPERT, but that's not even within a hundred miles of what we are talking about here.

Anyone got a RELevant challenge to my statements?

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Khan7

[Khan7]

Ah yes, sorry about my earlier exasperation Yoko, it seems you have gone and done some serious tests and see my point now :-P, but I probably shouldnta torn into you like I did :-(

Oh well, s'all good..

And btw, if direct your skirmishers to FIRE at the No-Dachi as the Dachi come on, the Dachi will DIE, for they will have way too few men left when they reach the skirmisher's line, and will be wiped out in melee, hehe >:->

I still think this is quite lopsided, for real :-P

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Khan7

[DragonCat]

For the first couple of days my skirmishers died in droves.

They have to be correctly supported to get the maximum effect from them.

Good unit, yes. God unit, no. Able to be overcome, absolutely. (Who in their right mind would rush them head on with cavalry, or send no dachi or warrior monks at them unscreened?)

With proper tactics, they can be dealt with. And yes, their range is pitifully short.

[DragonCat]

Correction, no warrior monks vs skirmishers - my bad. . . .

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Tankdogg123]

of course korean skirmishers should do well against cavalry if they have a javelin has a weapon coz a javelin is a lot like a spear.

[Khan7]

NEWSFLASH: Only particularly LONG spears have any significant advantage over cavalry and ONLY if the unit is well trained and stays in a good formation. A dinky little javelin is in no way similar to a yari, except in its shape.

And it would not appear that anyone other than myself and Yoko have properly tested this aspect. I guarantee you that if you use them CORRECTLY, an army of ALL skirmishers is nearly unstoppable. The fact of their short range means nothing-- the are practically invulnerable to missle fire, so just run them up within range and let loose a few javelin vollies and you've won the missle fight.

But I am open to contradictions from anyone who has seriously tested and considered this situation and has arrived at a different conclusion than me.

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Khan7

[Tachikaze]

There is a huge difference between a javelin and a spear. They should not be in any way confused. Javelins are much lighter and shorter. Their shafts are often weak. They are weighted at the tip for throwing, which makes them badly balanced for melee. They should have little, if any, bonus vs. cavalry. Spears, like yari, are very long (4 to 5 1/2 meters). When used correctly en masse, they can keep soldiers with smaller weapons or on horseback completely at bay.

[Swoosh So]

I played amp on nagashima he mongol i japanese, i thought right ill setup in the woods, amp started close skirmishers to the front now my ys had maximum armor in the woods, next thing i know i have like 40 ys out of 300 and nodachi to fight mongol h cav and skirmishers geez i got trounced, make of this what u will was just one game

Swoosh

[hach]

As i have yet to see the Expansion can i ask a question about these Skirmishers?

What happens after they have thrown their Javelins?

How do they reload?
Do they have an endless supply of these Javelins or once they have thrown their Javelin have to retrieve it in some way?

Hach

[Khan7]

After they have thrown all their javelins they revert to being a truly rather sturdy and nicely speedy melee unit. Of course, after they have thrown all their javelins you can expect your foe's army to be at 1/3 or less strength.

So the limit on ammo is really not a big problem with these guys..

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Khan7

[Zen Blade]

I don't have much experience with the skirmishers...

but... I don't think they are half as good as you make them out...

just surround them or attack with your units on loose and spread wide... they won't be able to do as well. Then, in h-to-h get to close formation again.

however,.... given the recent change in morale.... they may be pretty good in hand to hand

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Khan7]

Zen-- what you are saying is like this:

Oh, sure, Panzers aren't THAT effective, my second line Polish infantry, which lacks any effective anti-tank weapons, will deal with them just FINE! Just get the tank to drive down a narrow street, and a single squad of 18 infantrymen will make quick work of it, shooting the commander, jumping up on it, and dropping grenades down the hatch before the machine-gunners can even react!

In reality, yes, IF everything transpired just like the plausible scenario I outlined above, the tank could be easily dealt with. But the problem is that 'IF'. And I think we all know how those Panzers performed against the Poles..

To sum up-- your optimistic hypotheticals in which you are able to vastly outmanuever and outwit the skirmishers are possible but not likely in real life without a serious advantage in numbers or intellect. Your half-baked analysis means nothing. Stick to the point.

If people are going to comment they should at least get some experience or do some tests. Otherwise they really have no say in this.

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Khan7

[Zen Blade]

Khan7

just so you realize it...

I have been playing this game as long as anyone has (both the original and expansion).

As I don't recognize your handle khan7, I don't know who you are, but I don't think they are particularly effective against a smart opponent. I haven't played with/against them online yet, but if I have to in order to prove my point to you I will.

Give me a half-way decent opponent with all skirmishers if need be and I will take a standard balanced force.

Until I hear Magyar (or Koc) say that they are "god units", I won't seriousl look at them as such. They may be effective (against a frontal assult/chrage).

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Koga No Goshi]

To whoever asked a little bit up....

They just throw them and then throw the next one, they don't "retrieve" the javelin. But the supply is really limited. Not sure but it's around 5 volleys before they're out. But those volleys do MEGA damage. A lucky shot at close range can kill 30-40 soldiers.



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Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.