A Word of Caution..

[Khan7]

I personally am cautious about accepting the new option of weapons and armor upgrades in MP.. for you see weapons, and especially armor upgrades, allow you to bypass certain weaknesses of various troops types and use them for something they weren't designed for (for instance slap some legendary armor on Warrior Monks and their main weakness, lack of armor, is nullified, and they can pretty much stand on their own without support from other unit types (this is a primary strategy of mine in the full campaign)). There are mannny other examples I could give.

Anyway, just throwing that out there, haven't tested it much, and don't plan on doing any MP for a while.. so I would be quite interested in peoples' ideas on this..

------------------
Khan7

[TakeshidaSo]

Wouldnt MP be the best way to test the new features? Many other people would likely also have the same desire.

[Hiroshi-O'Duff]

Also, don't forget that Legendary Armor IS an option for Monkeys in Single-Player mode, as well. Now they're just allowing it in MP, too.

Not disagreeing, just raising a point.

Duff

------------------
Duff -
Look for me online as HIRO SAITO

[Khan7]

I know.. its just I feel it unbalances things, or at least makes them too complex and weird, in MP.

I think this is a possibly serious issue, that at least deserves a little thought. I myself am unsure as to whether my concerns are quite right, but I still think it should be looked at.

------------------
Khan7

[BSM_Skkzarg]

I agree with Kahn on this one. The game is balanced so that the Golden Horde is initially superior to standard (non-upgraded) japanese units - although their cost is higher for the efficiency. In a high koku game, a force of 16 MHC with max armor and weapons really unbalances the field, as the japanese side has no ability to effectivly counter - honor increases alone are not sufficient in cases like this. This is one reason why in the campaign, you do not have the ability to "upgrade" mongol troop weapons or armor. Personally, I think removing the option to upgrade mongol troops with weapon and armor while leaving it for the japanese would rebalance multiplayer.

BSM_Skkzarg

[DragonCat]

The players requested this. It is necessary if you are going to do a multiplayer campaign game.

Will have to see how it affects game. I've already started two posts about it so the slide-rule bows will start taking measurements so we have some hard facts.

------------------
DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[QuietWolf]

Well ... I tend to like the flexibility ... also people can agree ahead of time ... like a no weapon upgrade mong. v jap. battle etc.

One of the things ive been playing around with is that u can be more deceptive now and surpise someone (say with that YA group thats been training extra hard for a couple of years ... etc) ... but u still have to play with it.

So more of a chance for creativity on the battlefield.


------------------
In Reality ...

[JAG]

i think it is good as it seems a MHC will go thorugh anything except for when things like YS have weapon and armour upgrade and so i think this is a very good balancer for online play as the mongols won't be able to get such upgrades as thier army costs more koku!!! i think it is great http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif thumbs up! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

------------------

Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

[Catiline]

A question do upgrades show up in the battle on enemy troops. If not i think htat the addition is good. tooled up ND for example are a lot more useful than they seem, and they're going to cost less than monks. I for one would be careful of them if i wasn't sure if they were upgraded, now all you have to watch is that you don't get flanked by them

------------------
Oderint dum metuant

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Catiline: You should always be wachtfull when it comes to ND. An h3 ND in the original game beats an H2 monk everytime and costs 20 koku less. Hehehehehehe

And yes, it gets more complicated with armour and weapon upgrades in MI MP, but for me that is the point. more possibilities, more fun, more tactics available, not always the same "flank and shoot to you rout tactics".

[This message has been edited by KumaRatta Yamamoto (edited 08-18-2001).]

[Khan7]

Actually, h3 ND, in the tests I've run, tends to only have a small chance of actually defeating h2 monks, even though they hold out quite well.. it all seems to depend on how effective their initial charge is, cuz once things settle into a grinding melee the monks have an advantage. Monks are also more effective against a wider range of unit types (for instance they can take on cavalry to a satisfactory degree), which makes them better in that way too.

I just don't get ND except in low-koku..

Anyway, it's just the fact that you can twist the units around without your opponent know it that bothers me.. as far as realism is concerned I think it is really quite bogus to be able to twist the units to a purppose they were not intended for. The proper balances and properties exist with no weapons or armor upgrades, and honor is enough of a variable to keep track of, and you also can SEE honor by the banners of the enemy unit.

I think it is quite unrealistic not to be able to have even an inkling that a unit has weapons/armor upgrades, simply because in most real-life cases you would either have foreknowledge of the general state of the enemy's equipment (which you actually do have in the SP campaigns if you reconnoiter), or would at least be able to look at the enemy ranks and say "ooh, shiny weapons, sharp-looking armor". Probably the former factor would contribute more to knowledge of equipment quality than the latter, but at any rate I think such factors would more than justify adding some visual indicators that would at least roughly indicate how souped up an enemy unit is, something similar to the banners for honor.

Truly the amount of armor and the offensive factor of weapons is pretty much THE decisive factor, other than special weapons situations such as yari vs. cavalry, in deciding the role and usefullness of a unit, that the upgrades of such, whose true realism is very suspect, should either be excluded from MP or some rough visual indicator should be added.. not for the purpose of realism, but genuinely to preserve a certain balance in the game.

Of course one could argue that the cost of upgrades to make a No-Dachi into a super-effective Naginata-like unit or vice versa would be less efficient than simply starting with the type of unit you want, but I think that for many of the reasons stated above this does not really balance it enough.

Anyway, those are my latest conclusions.

------------------
Khan7

[UglyElmo]

Catiline, In multiplay there is not a way to tell if your opponent(s) have upgraded their units weapons and armor. It makes for a very good game because of this unknown. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif