What\'s with the campaign buildings?

[Khan7]

Evidently the STW people felt it prudent to reduce (by an average of 1/2) all building costs and build times. Forgive me if I dissent, but in all reality the build costs and times were PROBABLY too low in the FIRST version. Now it is rather insane.

Little thing about castles and irrigation systems etc.-- they are MAJOR public works, taking plenty of funds and plenty of time to complete. Most European castles took years (sometimes a couple or so decades) to complete. I dunno about Japanese castles, but it would seem that getting a goodsized castle (large castle) done in a single year is verrrrrry optimistic, especially when you take into account the infrastructure and logistics problems that any but a quite powerful and established clan would be working under. And don't get me started on the time it would take to work on farmland.

It would seem to me that this change is a very bad idea, and at the very least is wholly unrealistic.

Anyway, would be interested to hear a game designer's reasoning on this..

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Khan7

[Bohemond]

Good point, but also keep in mind that in reality you can build many infrastructures simultaneously. And you can start building a citadel right out. And I cannot think of any contemporary computer game that derives from the one-after-the-other rule.
On the other hand you are right, huge citadels would take at least a decade to complete.

[Yoko Kono]

Godd point Khan
but it is for the enjoymant of the game at its fullest
kensai take only 4 seasons to train
in reality such skilled swordsmen were legendary and to train one could take decades to find one with the dedication and skill required
the fact all other troop types can be trained in a year at hon 3 in legendary dojos i also unreal but adds to the games fun factor
if all thses issues were dealt with in a real world manner we would all be playing campaigns using only massed ranks of ashigaru and while historically this may have been more accurate it would make for a less interesting game

[VoodooChild]

Bohemond, the one after another rule is standard for any turn based computer game. Take anything in the Civilization series as an example. Now the real time games are different, but there your not "stacking" buildings, just starting something in a different spot.

[Khan7]

If massed ranks of Ashigaru were a dominant strategy in real life, then someone would have used it. But instead, we look at historical battles and we see a good deal of Ashigaru being used, but in conjunction with the great variety of other troop types you see simulated in this game. I personally think that the game should be reworked so that the advantages of ashigaru would be better expressed, but any realistic reworking would leave plenty of room for other types of units to play a very important and critical role. Anyway, that just to answer Yoko's jab about the Ashis..

And in general, I believe if it were worked at right the game could be much more realistic, especially in the resources and logistics area, without diminishing one bit from the fun of the game.

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Khan7

[whyidie]

I believe that the changes were a result of complaints from users that it took too long to "tech" up. Many users had found that by the time they were able to produce specialty units, the critical battles had already been won. As a result of the many complaints about the slow tech time, the makers adjusted.

[Khan7]

rrrrrrrgg.. sometimes it seems like people always get it wrong.. what needs to be adjusted is the DIFFICULTY OF CONQUERING (a very realistic change), rather than these outrageous tech time quick-fixes. If it were done the right way it would have the same effect of making teching up more relevant, while being realistic and SANE at the same time.

sheesh

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Khan7

[whyidie]

You raise an interesting point. Make the game more difficult/time consuming to "conquer" and that way you'll be able to tech up. How would you do this ? Consider that the most often employed strategy is to attack early and often before the AI can amass a horde. Also consider the balance between time/AI strength. Also consider the short attention span of consumers in todays market. Consider if you will how much an effect each change you make would have on the overall balance of the game. Then consider how much you would have to re-write to implement that change. Then consider that the majority of users plainly said "we want to tech up faster". Then proceed to see which change would be easier to implement.

[Lord Aeon]

I don't see what the big deal is. It's still only a game, and there are some people who would like to experience everything that the game has to offer. Not to mention that the build times, etc., are lower for the CPU players as well, which means that, from a technical standpoint, the CPU has the same advantages and potential as you do.

You would think that this would even things out, or perhaps make the game more difficult, because you can't simply just produce vast numbers of crappy troops and win by virtue of outnumbering your opponents... they will all have morale, weapon, armor upgrades and therefore probably put up more of a fight.

Maybe it's just me.

Do people usually complain this much on this forum?

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Alastair]

No, it's just because MI is out.

[whyidie]

I've been lurking since November and this is the most that I've seen. Its to be expected though with the release of the Xpack.

[Khan7]

Ah, here you are, denizens of any gaming forum-- those who are oddly offended by anyone who would be happy to see improvements in a game, those of you who claim to just want to play the game the way it is ("it's just a game!"), yet oddly keep coming back to the forum again and again to complain about everyone else's "complaining".

I don't have time to deal with you all now, will talk again in the morning. Until then, peace out :-)

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Khan7

[Lord Aeon]

Blah, blah, blah.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Koga No Goshi]

Khan, do you like ANYTHING about the X-pack?

If it sends you into paroxysms and fits, don't play it, it's a game man.



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Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

It is a game - and the design of the tech tree and the time it takes to "grow" it is in direct relevance to feedback given after Shogun:Total War was released. The makers attempted to give the consumer what they said they wanted. Is it good - some will say yes and some will say no. This expansion does have issues, but it also improves upon the original. Would I personally have made some different decisions - u betcha! Regardless, the folks at CA/EA/DT need to be told in an organized and rational manner what the MAJORITY of consumers want updated/fixed. I hope that someone is attempting to "poll the community" to provide that. Khan obviously is a grognard - a hard core "realism" fan - who feels that the game could and should be more realistic. That is his right. Many feel that the speed increase and simplification of certain aspects make the game more playable - they are entitled to that opinion as well. The makers will respond to the largest consensus blocks within their group of consumers - simply as a business decision. In this case - it is likely that the hard core realism folks will be outnumbed. Thus we should ALL work together to find suitable solutions to the major issues we feel are visible.

BSM_Skkzarg

[redfirestone]

I found that the reduced cost to building is the best thing in MI. In fact, I love to play the full campaign starting in 1580 with all the tech upgrades and fighting with a lot of units. And all the clan are way more balanced now. The western clans are truely playable now.

[Alastair]

That's a good point about the west, redfirestone. Khan, building multiple buildings has a similar effect as speeding up the building times. Speeding up the buildings has a better effect because if you finish a number of buildings in one turn, one turn before your enemy, that gives you a greater edge than if you are ahead one turn with the current system.

[Bohemond]

hmmmm .. people are complaining that we are complaining .. but we're not complaining!! the game certainly has it's flaws, so it's only OK point them out.
My suggestion: After playing so much, I would like to adjust certain variables now (in the single-player-campaign) like building-time, unit cost, provinve income, starting provinces, etc etc etc
This could be done externally, like in other games, where you can adjust virtually everything.

[celtiberoijontychi]

Khan had a good point some 5 posts above:

Problem 1: By the time you can build heavy cav or armored monks, you've already won
Cause : the campaign game is too easy

Possible solutions:
a)Make the campaign harder to win (smarter AI)
b)Shorter building times, lower building costs
c)Start campaign at different points in time
They've chosen to apply b) and c)

But there were other problems with the campaign game, wich were related to the same cause, I just mention some of them:
-you kill all Daimyos and half of Japan is Ronin
- alliances have no use
- AI doesn't use port invasions
- Ninjas perform poor
- Butchering of AI Hordes at bridges, Shinano defense, etc.
- Castle Assaults are ridiculous
- Christianity unuseful

They have been solved in a much more elegant manner:

- Ronin can become Clans "again", Clan ressurection
- Improved Diplomacy: if two allies start fighting, you must break your alliance with one of them; alliances report "commerce" income
- The so called "Port Bug" is official, the AI will use it!!
- Ninjas much better now
- reinforcements can appear everywhere on the map, even at your on side (of a bridge)
- Christianity is now much more useful

So, with all pros and cons, i think the strategic game has been improved a lot.

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

I hope that Khan7 will create and produce his own CD game soon and offer it for our approval. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Anssi Hakkinen]

*dodges flying sparks*

Geez, people.

As an aside, Ôsaka Castle's Honmaru (Inner Bailey), a Citadel if there ever was one, took only a year and a half to build from scratch. Considering how much (practically) slave labor the average sengoku-daimyô has available, I think a completely wooden construction (like the Large Castle) could be reasonably complete within a year. Of course, there are always additional touches, like support structures, but it would be siege-worthy in a year, and that's all that's really modeled in STW.

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"It is my sole wish to serve the Emperor as His shield. I will not spare my life or honor."
- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, composed on December 6, 1941

Edit: well, at least I typo Japanese, not English... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 08-18-2001).]

[whyidie]

Quote I don't have time to deal with you all now, will talk again in the morning. Until then, peace out :-)
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, thats the thing to do.


Quote hmmmm .. people are complaining that we are complaining .. but we're not complaining!!
[/QUOTE]

The majority of the time the intent is not to silence those who have complaints. As was pointed out before, the complaints are what led to the many changes that have been made to the game. Rather, I think the intent is to change the package that the complaint comes in. If you wrap your favorite food in dung, the food probably wouldn't be as appealing. I don't think that anyone said "stop complaining" it was mostly in the form of qualify your complaint while taking into consideration WHY changes were made in the first place. I don't think there was an outright attack on him or his idea. Refer to the number of times others said he raised a good or interesting point. Khan7 referred to himself as a both a hot-head and a very knowledgable person in a previous thread. I am inclined to take his word on both counts.

[Khan7]

I have since done some further reflection on this matter, and have arrived at the following ideas:

The building time changes may not be so unrealistic as one might think, because realistically probably a lot of the "teching up" you have to do in the game would've already been done in real life.. at the same time many things are built too quickly but the two may balance eachother out (possibly).

Things have generally improved because now the AI actually techs up (as opposed to their previous strategy of scratching their butts for decades on end). This I'm sure is not due to decreased building time/cost but more to a fundamental fix in AI.

I would still argue that the halved building costs, and event the original building costs, were unrealistic and way out of proportion with unit costs. Of course this could again be at least partially balanced out by the fact that one could argue that you have to do more teching up in the game than u would in real life.

All of these are preliminary ideas which I myself am not sure of. But I thought I'd throw them out there. I still think that fundamental changes in the strategic and logistical nature of the game would be very nice, and I'm sure CA is thinking about and working on some of these for future games.

rrg, sometimes one cannot have all of the icing for their cake at once.

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Khan7

[Alastair]

Obviously the logistics and support thing should be redone, but that's kinda hard. They did quite a bit on the campaign, so we have to make our complaints catch up. I think it is a sign of how well they did on the campaign that it took a week for anyone to find a fault in it, and by that time, we had to go so far forward in our realistic thinking that we really couldn't have expected CA to do it.

[celtiberoijontychi]

The changes that have been made so far guarantee another year of fun Campaign gaming.
I don't think they'll change anything more, they're already working full time on Crusaders. The moding options they've left open are enormous, so we have enough to do for the next year. By the time Crusader is released, STW will be fully modable, we will be able to create custom campaigns, new clans, modified unit stats and perhaps unit costs and training times ...