Multiplayer Discussion

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Qapla All...
This is to discuss the MP ability to add weapon and armor upgrades to the mongols... whether it should be kept or not. Note that I have no problem with letting the Japanese keep the modifications - as that allows balance to be kept - but the mongol upgrades need to be done away with.
In high koku games - the Horde can max out armor and weapons - allowing the unit balance to be done away with. Take 16 mongol heavy cav with max honor/weapon/armor and nothing will beat it - since your limited to 16 units
maxed out yari sam can't. However - if you take away the weapon and armor upgrades - the units all have a balanced ability - one that can be countered by another unit.

Thoughts?

Skkz

[Pussiecat]

Although i havent played it yet, my thoughts would be to play with a sensible amount of koku - makes battles more realistic as fights to the last man kinda lack something.
So sensbible koku wont allow 16 hc all done up. Anyone found ways of beating these guys yet?

[MagyarKhans Cham]

600 koku spears beat 600 mhcav

[Jaguar]

I agree that the Mongol upgrades should be done away with, but EA is too lazy and most likely will ignore the issue. Better just the make the best of it and have lower Koku Games.

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Honour to Clan Shades!

[DragonCat]

I don't agree at all for several reasons.

1) Mongols already cost more. So upgrades will cost more.
2) If you set koku value very high, then Mongols will have koku they can't spend while Japanese can carry the costs into more upgrade options
3) If we get Mongol vs Mongol added, then it adds interesting options to such battles
4) This is fantasy anyway. If Mongols HAD actually invaded, they may have learned to upgrade - maybe not. Hey, while we're at it, maybe they could have conscripted Japanese units into their army like the Koreans!
5) If you want more "realiistic" battles following your precepts, you are free to do so under the current conditions. Both agree to terms before hand and follow them. Tournaments could still be run following your guidelines with the current system.
6. There are far better things for developers to spend time on then fixing something that isn't broken - as laid out above.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Dragon cat , i hate it when someone expresses my views before me. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

So i guess, i must say i agree with DragonCat. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Wait i can add this, the armour and weapons upgrade where one of the things that patrons here ASKED FOR, after the release of the original game. So in this case, they actually listened to us.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Well - I understand the idea of what some of you are saying - it appears that you misunderstand me. I am NOT suggesting that the armor and weapon upgrades should be taken away entirely - they ARE great for the japanese.

However, as Magyar said - a 600 koku Yari samurai will beat a 600 Mongol Heavy cav. Thats not the question. Yari Samurai can be purchased at 200 koku - add 3 armor/3weapon and +1 honor and they are 576 koku - and they WILL beat a MHC. And the MHC costs 600 koku without any upgrades. I have tested this and its not even in dispute - my beef is the fact that you can take a HIGH koku game - take those same MHC - add 3 armor/weapons and max honor, do it with all 16 units and there is no way that the japanese can counter - not with the 16 unit limit they have in MP - max armor and weapons and honor on any jap unit and it still can't stand against a maxed out 16 MHC army. Fact is - after testing - a maxed out MHC will easily take 2-3 maxed yari's out. THAT is a major imbalance since a maxed MHC is much cheaper than those 2-3 Maxed yari's. So even if you don't MAX out everything - a few extreme MHC are going to be enough to take down even a solid jap defender - the armor/weapon upgrades make the mongol vs japanese no contest.
Leave the upgrades in for the japanese - but allow for some balance by taking out the option for the mongols.
This not only affects the MHC - but also deals with the Mongol Korean Skirmishers. They are a deadly unit and with armor they are close to unstoppable as well...
If anyone doubts this - let me know and we will play 2 games at 7500 koku - one with mongol upgrades and one without... I will be mongol and then u tell me which one is more fair.

To be honest - I do like the "toggle" idea - let those who want it have it but don't leave it to where your opponent can use it without your consent or knowledge. You don't have to know what his army is - but you should be notified if he is using upgrades (not counting honor of course).

BSM_Skkzarg

[DragonCat]

I agree with your last statement.

Also, there is an EASY way to avoid the maxed out units. . . don't play high koku games. Personally, I don't like anything much above 8000 and am perfectly content with less.

Also, upgrades were put in to help support multiplayer campaign game.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Jaguar]

I agree, if you have 16 units on the battlefield, it's hard to form a strategy, people just clash into each other and see which one is luckier, I like 6 or 7 units in my armies, with decent honour though.

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Honour to Clan Shades!

[Swoosh So]

The facts are of cousre 1 unit will always be better at higher koku when there are 16 of those units it cant be avoided, having played against the mongols i feel reducing them anymore would completely ruin the game, infact sometimes the mongols are just too easy through their lack of variety and effectiveness on certain maps, if i play mongol v jap i give the jap player a nice good defencive map to defend on taking options out of the game is not what we should be looking to do, we should be taking all the options we can get.

Swoooooooosh

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Guys,

Thank you all for the feedback - I have been doing some testing and I am beginning to see what you mean! Thats why I posted - to get some reaction to help me along in what to test etc. It has been helpful and I am starting to change my mind on this issue. Just goes to show how an open mind can help out. Now if I could just get ONLINE with this stupid thing ROFL!

Thanks again guys.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."