Definition and description issues (or bugs).

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Note that these are the major issues that players are concerned about. Some MAY be bugs, some are bugs, and some are design features that people are divided on.

Owari Bug - Owari has 2 bridges, and when attacking it the AI cannot decide how to defend. It tends to allow its units to be "baited" into traps on an individual basis allowing for an easy victory. This needs to be resolved. It appears to be an AI issue only.

Rebellion Bug - After extensive testing - a rebellion is easy to force - however the rebelling army is ALWAYS roughly the same size as the garrison and is ALWAYS beaten easily with minimal (20-30 men) losses to the clan holding the rebelling province. (This applies to rebellions in eneny territory only - my provinces have never rebelled.) This is sad since fomenting rebellion in an enemy province that is garrisoned only ends up making the commanding officer of the army better at his job. He wins with minimal losses - his units and his own honor increases with the victory. There needs to be more of a variety in the amount and/or quality of the rebelling army.

Concealed units not really concealed - This is a bug that is very irritating in SP. Basically - if you conceal a unit in battle - the AI will often send out a unit - park it near your unit (but not near enough to bring it out of concealment) and then proceed to demolish the visible portion of your army. The parked unit is there to keep you from flanking - yet it should not be there since it is not supposed to know a unit is hidden... If your visible army is defeated - the AI then brings back its forces and then directly runs a unit at your concealed men, until they are drawn out of concealment - at which point they are attacked and destroyed. The AI should NOT be aware of where concealed units are located unless they move - ie. leave concealment.

Rout Bug - Due to the way reinforcements are handled currently, it is very easy to slaughter reinforcing units - as they will rout toward their "side" of the battlefield. If you hold their side you can simply line up and as they approach to attack they will rout INTO your line - enabling a great slaughter to occur.

Among the list of issues at contention are the following:

Morale - some ppl think that morale is to "high" for all units - meaning they fight longer than they should. Some feel the morale is fine. Many think a small tweak downward would be beneficial.

Unit Balance - A few gamers feel that the units are unbalanced - specifically - the MHC vs JHC. Others have found that alternate tactics can take the wind out of MHC hordes - provided they have no upgrades.

MP weapon/armor upgrades for Mongols - Some feel that the ability to upgrade mongols in MP with weapon and armor disturbs the balance of MP games. Taking the upgrades away from the mongols but leaving them for the Japanese would please those people. Best suggestion to date - add a toggle allowing or disallowing mongol upgrades.

Game options that are turned off are enabled regardless on higher difficulty levels. One may turn off "limited Ammo" for your missile troops - but if you play at Normal or greater difficulty your troops have limited ammuntion regardless of the setting. This was brought up in the original S:TW and was stated as a feature. Such things as restricted camera, limited battle time and limited ammunition should be true OPTIONS depending on one's preference.

Reinforcement handling - See Also ROUT BUG - A few people like the way it is - most do not. Entirely random reinforcement placement ends up with your units spread everywhere with no coherence - usually resulting in most reinforcments routing quickly. Suggestions include going back to the "old" way - to allowing the reinforcents to enter from a random spot on their owned "edge" or anywhere on their "side" of the battlefield. In case of rivers - the owned SIDE would be obvious.

Feel free to add any others I have missed and please try to include as much detail as possible. Also - if some ppl like the way it is but you do not - say that some ppl like it so that it is clear that it is an item that can be dealt with thru consensus - don't make it out like there is only one view on it - unless its an obvious bug that requires a fix.

Thanx,
BSM_Skkzarg

[QuietWolf]

Well written summary ... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I've been playing around abit more with some battles and I guess it does seem that the moral effects could be tweeked down abit.

I recently played a few battles with where I had 3-4 units of calvary charge into to two YS ... the comp put em on hold formation ... I ran another unit behind and attacked the rear and both YS units (honor 2) fought almost to the last man (3-4 men left). I was hiting em up front and then also in back ... seems like they should have routed when they were attacked from the back.

Keep in mind ... I dont like it when some guy runs one unit behind me (hasnt even attacked yet) and units would rout ... but it does seem like when the odds are 2-1 and ur been held in the front and attacked from the back ... it seems like if units should rout they should there.

So .. I guess I think that the moral coding needs to be tweeked down abit. But I wouldnt want it to go back to the way it was b4 (not that it was terrible or anything).



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In Reality ...

[Lord Aeon]

Well, like i said, it may be wise it take a little more time before we label some of these things as "bugs"...

IMO, the only issue listed here that could really be called a "bug" (IF it is actually happening) is the Owari issue. And i'm not entirely convinced that this IS a bug at all. It could simply be that, instead of dividing his army and trying to defend both crossing points, the AI general is just waiting for you to come to him. Drawing the enemy off with a fast-moving unit is something that works on ANY map. But i haven't seen any evidence that taking Owari from the CPU is a simple affair.

With respect to concealed units, i think it would be fairly difficult to hide 120 guys with armor and spears (and maybe horses) among a few trees, especially when the enemy gets close enough to see that not ALL of your men in a unit are completely concealed.

Finally, with regard to the rebellions: Often the rebellion is made of peasants and rabble who should conceiveably be easily defeated by a trained, experienced army. Frankly, since rebellions are so easy to force, it should follow that they be easy to defeat, else there would be very little purpose in producing troops; you could just pump out loads of shinobi and cause rebellions in your enemies' provinces and watch as their armies are dwindled to nothing in two turns.

The rest of your issues seem to be matters of personal preference more than issues that need to be immediately resolved. In other words, on these i am choosing not to take a strong stance one way or another because the way i feel about them will most likely change over time.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[MagyarKhans Cham]

one thing i also hate is the conceal bug. units are hard to conceal on a fine day and when i see the concealing tree icon i want to be sure that the unit is concealed

[DragonCat]

Well written BSM- Concise, to the point, fair and accurate.

[Algesan]

Good list. Only problem is that the Owari bug is when the AI is on offense and not defense. It sets up in the middle and then just sits there. For the Owari defense, I actually thinks the AI works better by setting up in the middle and then deploying to counter assaults over the bridges. Of course, it would work even better if it deployed blocking forces at each bridge with a central reserve.....

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Algesan - Thank you for clearing up my error on Owari! Thats the kind of feedback this forum needs - helpful!

Lord Aeon - Understand that this post is not about saying "THIS IS WRONG AND THIS IS WRONG AND OH YA THAT TOO!" - It is a list of the VERY FEW things that have been found as true bugs - like Owari - and a number of issues that are being discussed in depth in other threads - such as morale - unit balance - etc. Owari is a blatent bug - especially since Algesan was kind enough to correct me on it in that the Attacker never Attacks!! If you have a valid reason this would not be a bug, feel free to fill me in on it!

The "revolt bug" that I placed was based on common sense - a province that is in high revolt - loyalty of 30 or less is not going to only field 90 men for battle - it will have every man available armed! The lower the loyalty - the bigger the rebellion. Unfortunately - the game does not use that - but rather does a nearly man for man - tit for tat headcount and then creates a likewise number of ashigaru.... That is why its a bug. Again - if you can give me a reasonable explanation that can make me understand that a group of 60 archers garrison a province with a loyalty of 18 and all the populous does is field one ashigaru unit as compared to a horde - well - feel free - I am always open to feedback as long as its civil and constructive.

On the issue of concealment - the AI sees your men even when they are concealed - and then uses that information - if the unit is not concealed - you should not get the concealed Icon on the unit. Try it in multiplayer - take a 60 man unit into the woods and hide it - without your human opponent seeing - and they will have a devil of a time finding that unit - however the AI runs a unit right near yours first thing to stop a flanking maneuver - then destroys it directly with no "hunting" needed. If you put a unit somewhere in MP and it is concealed - your opponent will not know it is there. Try it in a custom battle - put your men in the exact same place and watch the AI come tramping to ya. That my friend - is a BUG!

The routing bug is one that is obvious - only because of how the battle engine works. Because of reinforcments being "delayed", they dribble in on attack. By trying to regain their "home ground", they are forced to attack you - as they do their morale fails and they rout INTO you - allow a slaughter. While the reinforcement issue is one to be discussed - the rout that it causes is a separate issue and must be dealt with if reinforcements are not changed. A tweak to allow reinforcing units to group before attacking would do to stop the routing. Personally - I feel the reinforcement needs changing - but if they don't do that, so be it. At least they should know what unintended action is caused by the AI behavior in battle.

Feedback as always is welcome.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Algesan]

Actually, I see one big thing that would be helpful on MP for player balancing of games. It is not original, but if this is a collecting place then it should be here.

There needs to be the ability to have different koku amounts for attacker and defender. If you play a 8k to 4k game, then you darn well know that the 4k defender better be camping a hill/corner to even have a chance to survive.

[The Shogun]

Cheers guys I have passed these on to the developers.



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The Shogun
Bringinng wisdom in an unwise world

[The Shogun]

Hi guys first off a big thank you to the guys at the Org, especially BSM_Skkzarg for a great overview of current issues and concerns regarding the add-on pack. I can confirm that there will be a patch to address certain issues, but we will be waiting for awhile to get more feedback.

Below is a current list of possible issues and comments regarding them from the guys here at CA.

Owari Bug - Owari has 2 bridges, and when attacking it the AI cannot decide how to defend. It tends to allow its units to be "baited" into traps on an individual basis allowing for an easy victory. This needs to be resolved. It appears to be an AI issue only.

Baiting the computer troops in this way is a valid strategy for this map.

Rebellion Bug - After extensive testing - a rebellion is easy to force - however the rebelling army is ALWAYS roughly the same size as the garrison and is ALWAYS beaten easily with minimal (20-30 men) losses to the clan holding the rebelling province. (This applies to rebellions in enemy territory only - my provinces have never rebelled.) This is sad since fomenting rebellion in an enemy province that is garrisoned only ends up making the commanding officer of the army better at his job. He wins with minimal losses - his units and his own honour increases with the victory. There needs to be more of a variety in the amount and/or quality of the rebelling army.

In this case a rebellion is easy to force, but as you point out it is also of limited value.

Concealed units not really concealed - This is a bug that is very irritating in SP. Basically - if you conceal a unit in battle - the AI will often send out a unit - park it near your unit (but not near enough to bring it out of concealment) and then proceed to demolish the visible portion of your army. The parked unit is there to keep you from flanking - yet it should not be there since it is not supposed to know a unit is hidden... If your visible army is defeated - the AI then brings back its forces and then directly runs a unit at your concealed men, until they are drawn out of concealment - at which point they are attacked and destroyed. The AI should NOT be aware of where concealed units are located unless they move - ie. leave concealment.

You need to be careful when you conceal units that all the units are hidden.

Rout Bug - Due to the way reinforcements are handled currently, it is very easy to slaughter reinforcing units - as they will rout toward their "side" of the battlefield. If you hold their side you can simply line up and as they approach to attack they will rout INTO your line - enabling a great slaughter to occur.

This is a valid strategy. Routing units are not thinking they are just fleeing for home.

Among the list of issues at contention are the following:
Morale - some ppl think that morale is to "high" for all units - meaning they fight longer than they should. Some feel the morale is fine. Many think a small tweak downward would be beneficial.
We'll continue to look at balancing.

Unit Balance - A few gamers feel that the units are unbalanced - specifically - the MHC vs JHC. Others have found that alternate tactics can take the wind out of MHC hordes - provided they have no upgrades.
We'll continue to look at balancing, but there are effective strategies which work against the Mongols. (We are currently writting a new strategy guide for the website).

MP weapon/armour upgrades for Mongols - Some feel that the ability to upgrade Mongols in MP with weapon and armour disturbs the balance of MP games. Taking the upgrades away from the Mongols but leaving them for the Japanese would please those people. Best suggestion to date - add a toggle allowing or disallowing Mongol upgrades.
As above, we'll continue to look at the balancing here and will take note of peoples conclusions from multiplayer games.

Game options that are turned off are enabled regardless on higher difficulty levels. One may turn off "limited Ammo" for your missile troops - but if you play at Normal or greater difficulty your troops have limited ammunition regardless of the setting. This was brought up in the original S:TW and was stated as a feature. Such things as restricted camera, limited battle time and limited ammunition should be true OPTIONS depending on one's preference.


This is deliberate. Turning off some of the realism options makes the game too easy, whereas the higher difficulty levels are intended to provide a serious challenge.
Reinforcement handling - See Also ROUT BUG - A few people like the way it is - most do not. Entirely random reinforcement placement ends up with your units spread everywhere with no coherence - usually resulting in most reinforcements routing quickly. Suggestions include going back to the "old" way - to allowing the reinforcements to enter from a random spot on their owned "edge" or anywhere on their "side" of the battlefield. In case of rivers - the owned SIDE would be obvious.


The reinforcements arriving from different sides does require different tactics. Overall we think that the variety which it adds to the battles makes up for some of the issues that arise. We'll look at this and may consider changing it.




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The Shogun
Bringinng wisdom in an unwise world

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

BSM:About Rebellions.... I have experienced different type of rebellions and they are not all easy to crush , nor have they the same number of units or same type.

The ones that you are talking about are stricly peasant rebellions. It sort of makes sense that they are easily defeated by units consisting of professional soldiers. They can be usefull if you send ninjas with your shinobi. The shinobi creates the revolt, the Ninja kills the taisho (ninja's seem to succed more in MI).

If you play with religion or create a religious revolt against a clan with a christian daimyo, you will get a rebellion with different types of samurais and guns(Christian revolt) or with monks (Budhist revolt) must harder to beat.

You can also create loyalist revolts in the provinces you lost recently or in provinces we're a clan has lost a province recently to another clan. These revolts consists usually of a LOT of units and can be successfull.

[Lord Aeon]

BSM_Skkzarg: YOU misunderstand ME. I wasn't trying to argue with you... Funny, The Shogun said basically the exact same things i did...

Oh well. Just understand that i wasn't attacking you, just offering my opinions on these issues; just suggesting that not EVERYONE feels the same about some of these things. There's always another way to look at things, and if you think about it, some of these issues may indeed not be bugs for all the reasons i have already stated. That's all. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-20-2001).]

[Swoosh So]

Ive had alot of fun on the single player campaign the rebellions seem fine to me, i like to ally with a clan and incite rebellions in their lands heheheehhehe, keeps them busy while you conquer the adjacent lands, also you should look to cause rebelions on ungarrisoned provinces, a garrisoned province will quite rightfully quell a rebellion.


Swooooooooosh

[Magyar Khan]

Shogun, plz dont try to be selective with the "bugs" and how they should be adressed

[Algesan]

Shogun, you missed my correction several posts before yours.

"Owari Bug - Owari has 2 bridges, and when attacking it the AI cannot decide how to defend. It tends to allow its units to be "baited" into traps on an individual basis allowing for an easy victory. This needs to be resolved. It appears to be an AI issue only.


Baiting the computer troops in this way is a valid strategy for this map."

Sorry, the bug/feature is not on defense, but offense.

On defense, the AI is using a better, but not IMO, the best defense than in STW by setting up in the center and reacting to thrusts across the bridges.

On offense, the AI does a standard single bridge setup with half the missile units on each flank and assault column in the middle. However, it sets this up with the head of the column at the village on the attacker's side and then just sits there and sits there and sits there. The missile near the defender's right bridge can be brought under fire and destroyed by mass missile fire from the defender. A unit can then be introduced across this bridge by the defender which will provoke one attacking melee unit moving up to engage as well as the rest of the attacker's missile units. The defender can then score kills against the rest of the attacking missile and simply withdraw when the melee unit gets close. At this point, the attacking AI returns the missile units back to original position while it realizes it has a unit in front of a bridge. So the single AI melee unit crosses under the combined missile fire of the defender into the combined melee units of the defender. Rinse, repeat......

[Alastair]

Shogun, I can justify many of the things you said, but routing INTO enemy troops? No one even in their wrong mind would do this. Troops in all types of warfare, all eras, ALWAYS rout AWAY from danger, not toward it. The tactic of getting in front of the routing troops' routing path is a completely unrealistic (not to mention boring and stupid) way to deal with routing troops. Troops should always rout AWAY from immediate danger, even if it means routing into enemy territory (with the possibility of getting home).

[Lord Aeon]

Just a note on the AI pulling away from the bridge(s) on defense:

I sugested in another thread that this is just as viable a strategy as setting up right at the end of the bridge. Also, like i have also said, baiting the enemy with a unit is a strategy that works on many maps; it's just the case that folks use it almost exclusively on the bridge maps.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Shogun,

Thank you, everyone that has posted has really tried to help shape this thread to something that the community, and by extension the developers, could use. I hope you can pass on my error on Owari to the developers - since it was corrected.

The question of unit balance, rebellion, MP options etc are things that even now this community is hashing out. I hope that the developers will prove to be more patient with us as we figure out what we want more than we have been patient with them, as some have already been screaming "PATCH! PATCH!" LOL.

The effort expended on making Shogun WE/MI is appreciated by us all, regardless of issues or problems. True, there are "bugs" and things we are trying to come to grips with, and we will expect the bugs at least to be fixed. But we also know that in reality - not everyone can be perfectly 100% happy with the product, and thus our need to build a concensus on our desires.

Now - if I could just get into EAPlay!
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Lord Aeon,

I appreciate your feedback, whether I agree with your stance or not. And no, I am not offended since you stated your view in a mature manner. As adults, we have no reason to get bent out of shape just because of a difference of opinion. No offense was intended by you, and none was taken. Thank you for your honesty and your maturity in your posts. Such discussions are the reason this forum is here.

Good Hunting!
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[A Nerd]

Just a note on rebellions, simply an opinion, seeing that all your residents are going to be peasants, the rebelling army should most likely be ashigaru.