Enough is enough

[Obake]

When I first started lurking at the Sword Dojo (well over a year ago) the threads and discussions that took place here were in anticipation of the game and what we hoped they would include. After the game was released, we discussed what we liked and didn't like and offered up our suggestions on how to get the most out of it. We also offered our ideas to the developers on what we would like to see in future releases.

Yes there were arguements and disagreements along with a fair share of venting about the things we were unhappy with, but it was done in a calm and polite manner. Overall however, we were pleased with what we had and we all played the hell out of it.

That is no longer the case.

The threads in Sword Dojo have unfortunately become nothing more than a narcissistic bitch-fest. Our own self-importance as a community is absolutely absurd and this is reflected in the quality of the posts that have been showing up prior to the release of the expansion and in the last couple of weeks following it's release in North America and the Far-East. It seems that for the most part, very few people are happy with the expansion.

Perma-student "Khanny-come-lately's" come in here spouting off all of the information stored in their minds and disparage anyone who doesn't measure up to the standards set by their ego's. All the while insulating themselves from ever having to actually participate in their own lives and perhaps utilizing that wealth of knowledge and even gaining some wisdom in the process.

Others complain about the hard work and effort put in by the development team and expect that the game be fixed to our liking (I was one of these).

Some complain about the business decision to no longer update software that is no longer current. I can certainly understand the complaints about this one, but it's a fact of business that you don't continue developing for obsolete software (much as it pains me to say it, that is what the original STW is now).

I've seen moderators being abused for trying to maintain a modicum of decency and pertinence here and on other forums. I've even seen the one person who has done more for this community than any other group of individuals combined (Erado) being abused and dragged through the mud because he was doing his job as moderator. Others come in here and on other boards feeling like they can do or say anything they like.

I've seen people in here with illegal versions of the expansion, posting about the intricacies of the game. Some are understandably anxious and will obtain valid versions as soon as they can (because they are honorable), and others are just cheap and/or don't feel that they should have to pay for someone else's work (or any of a half-dozen other excuses).

I could go on and on about all of the things going on here and elsewhere within the community, but there's no point. I used to be proud to be a member of this community and to be able to associate with so many of the people who took part in this shared existence.

When I saw that the community was losing its former grandeur, I helped form the Shogun Honor Society in an effort to help restore our integrity. That effort was met with ridicule, attacks and downright anger. We weathered that storm, and the Society still exists, but it has no impact.

I no longer see any point in remaining a participating member of this community and posting on this or other forums. The truth of the matter is that every single person in here has gotten more than their money's worth from the original game and will do so from the expansion as well. But that's not enough.

I am forced to remain a member of the community by virtue of my owning the WLE and playing online, but I'm done with the public forums. Maybe at some point in the future, when people are once again willing to be a constructive group rather than individuals fighting to see who can get their voices heard (regardless of how good what you have to say is), I will start actively participating again.

In the meantime, I have no doubt that I did a thoroughly atrocious job explaining myself, so I'll re-state it simply:

Hope I see you all online, 'cuz it won't be around here until everyone quits bitching, whining and complaining about the game and each other, and actually starts to act as a mature community that can accomplish something again.

To the developers: Thank you for such an outstanding gaming experience and I look forward to your next efforts.

To the publishers: What you have done and are continuing to do to the developers and also to this community stinks! I have however, gotten more than my money's worth and will continue to do so in spite of your best efforts to ruin my fun!

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Obake

I warned you, but did you listen? Ohh, no...it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it?

[Tachikaze]

I agree.

We must keep in mind that the developers really want to make a game they can be proud of. They listen to our opinions, and do what they can to placate us and add what they think will be fun -- all the while working within the restrictions of time and software limits.

There is nothing wrong with letting them know which things appeal to us, and which don't. But we should just respond as feedback, not complaints.

As far as the civility of this forum, I joined this group for that very reason. The level of conversation here was very high. Unfortunately, the larger a group gets, the more riff-raff will be here, bringing the quality level down. But I believe the good dialogue is still there, it's just the riff-raff speak louder and are the most obvious. I've read some good, thoughtful posts recently.

Obake, your loss will only serve to lower the quality more.

Obake,

I am sad when reading your post because as ex-admin you know the level of post quality that the dojo is usually up to- which is very high.

On the other hand you must understand that during the last weeks the xpack has been released in half the world and new tactics/facts/bugs are being discovered constantly. There are many new faces joining the forum and many of them have still to learn many things and adapt themselves to our rules. And surely, the big dissapoitments about the the Total War games didn't help, neither.

I am sure that with a bit of patience and understanding this place will become as it was- that is what I've been saying all time - a close, friendly family.

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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[DoCToR]

as one of the older members of the old and new Sword Dojo, who left this forum due to the lack of Shogun patches and returned with the arrival of the MI, you have my utmost respect Obake for what you've just stated!

will be a shame not to have your mature and interesting posts to look forward to in the near future http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

here's to a swift return...

[Khan7]

Well, one day of ranting on 5 hours sleep, and now every sharp or blunt word I speak is considered profane.. I should've expected as much, but it doesn't give me much faith in humanity.

As for people with illegal versions, I assume you are talking about the scores of dedicated Shogun fans who bought the expack only to find that their CD key had not been entered into the database.. for real, I would suggest you go and check out the tech support board, there's a 50-60 long thread there dealing with this issue.

Anyway, before you bash anyone and everyone for ranting, I'd suggest you take a second look at your own post here, bud. For real.

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Khan7

[BSM_Skkzarg]

As one of the "newcomers" here, I can honestly sympathize. I joined this forum along time ago when I first bought Shogun - was not very active and ended up losing my registration info. So when I got the xp, I re-registered and have been as active as I can be in the forums. There are some new folks out there who (I am assuming they are new due to their "rank" from # of posts) who are exactly as you say. However, there are quite a few who endeavor only to help this forum get better, and can refrain from the flames and insults as mature people. Your decision is your own and no one can change it, but I ask you to reconsider on the basis that any forum always has those who try and create "drama" instead of be constructive - and it is those like yourself who have the maturity to tactfully put them in their place and help move the community forward. Whatever you decide, know that we wish you the best both on and off the battlefield.

Good Hunting!
Qapla!


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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[This message has been edited by BSM_Skkzarg (edited 08-20-2001).]

[DarthGuru]

Dear Obake and members of the community,
I agree with you that the quality of this forum has gone down lately. Before, to me at least, this forum was the best I've ever come across. If you travel to other gaming communities, you'll see much more complaining and flaming then you could ever imagine. But I must say that the developers do respond much more and actually take into account what the people complain about in these other forums (resulting in activity by developers in the forums, and in many patches which actually address the problems). In Shogun Total War I can't say it is close to the same. To have a large online community playing and continuing to play with only have one patch released is unheard of. I agree the game is one of the best strategy games ever made, but the support is less then satisfactory. There is a reason why we have been seeing many more complaints and whiners these days. It's because the game has problems, and the support hasn't been helping. Either way I'll agree that we all have gotten our moneys worth, but if they want Shogun to be known as one of the best games of all time, the service and support should exceed any expectation or money worth.
Addressing the problems with the whiners in the community. No matter what gaming community you goto there will always be complainers and people not happy with anything. It's ignorance and it is everywhere you look. I still think this community is better than most others I've been apart of, but I also have seen it decline with age. Obake you are one of the most respected of the community and it's sad to hear you leave the forums, but I'm sure many have been thinking along the same lines, as I have.
I still believe the STW is a great game and MI is a great single player expansion. But I must side with the main of the community in that the developers need to take more part in the discussions or make an effort to address the problems we are having. I might be biased due to my many personal problems with EA and CA support, which still hasn't been solved. But I guess that should sort of somewhat contribute to the unconcerned developers. On the other hand we should stick to the constructive comments rather than the one sentence complaints and so on. I also have seen many, not all, of the new members flood the community with usless posts and complaints, where many of these flamers/spammers/whiners come from. I stand by my statement in that the community is still of better quality then many others, but I understand that it grows stupid with its age and numbers. An individual is smart, creative, and brave; but a mass is stupid, ignorant, and easily swayed. Anyways I'm rambled on enough, just here to make my opinion heard. Good luck to you Obake and hope to see you in the foyer and around. Good luck to everyone else as well... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Anssi Hakkinen]

I knew there was going to be a transition with the release of the expansion pack - but I expected it to be a massive horde of little, nice newbies who would need guidance, and some of those inevitable people who have no sense of rules and of whom we would easily be rid of through banning.

However, instead we've got a smaller number of new people - most if not all of them capable of analyzing the game keenly and expressing their opinion on it sharply. The problem is, with the "original" community voicing so many negative opinions, the "new" members follow what they see as the established suit (whether they realize it or not), and the negativeness resonates against the frail paper walls of our cozy, protected home. As has been pointed out by many others here, the negativeness drowns the positiveness. And eventually nobody's having fun anymore.

In that sense, Obake-sama has had the guts to make the solution many of us would prefer to make, too - go and play STW instead of hanging around here and complaining. And I certainly know we are not going to become a strong community with unified goals again just by complaining here.

But I have hope that this storm will pass. I have hope that people start seeing the expansion for what it is. And if I had something to drink, I would drink to Obake-sama's speedy return - the community without you is not the community I used to know.

("Negative waves"... Kelly's Heroes... I need to sleep. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif)

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"Sincere diplomacy is no more possible than dry water or wooden iron."
- Josef Stalin

[JAG]

hello,

i am totaly with you obake i have voiced the same thing in other threads and my thread in the crusaders forum touched on this. . . . i think it is downright rude to insult ca for what they have not been able to do. . .focus on what they have done which is one of the best games if not the best game i have played and many others have!!!

as anssi said it is mainly new members to the community so u would expect a fair amount of things like this from them so i think u should reconsider on ur leaving as i am sure things will settle down after 1 or 2 months where like shogun the vets and new bread of vets stick with the game as the others fall off and stop playing!

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Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

[Catiline]

Well this thread will teach me to check OT first http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif. Obake it is sad to see you feel this way, I hope after a while you will feel able to return. Frankly I think the only thing that's good about all htis bitching is htat it will save the rest of the world from having to be disappointed. I still look forward to getting my hands on MI, problems or not. Yes the game is badly supported, yes there are bugs, though most of what are called tbugs aren't. It's not as though the game is like Hidden and Dangerous where the bugs meant everyso often you fell through hte floor. so far as I can tell many of these problems are simply things people don't like, or agree with.

I for one would much prefer it if people would limit their outright complaining and instead attempt to make construcive suggestions. Also it'd help if people would read the threads that already exist rahter than posting endless new ones about issues already under debate.

lets try and pull ourselves together please gentlemen.




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Oderint dum metuant

[DragonCat]

Obake,

You have my deepest respect. Thanks for taking a courageous stand. I am in agreement with you and look forward to your return when things have gotten back to "normal." And I will certainly see you online.

To the community,

Personally, I enjoy the game tremendously as it is and accept what I have. I also am doing my part to add constructive criticism in the hopes we may make what is good - even great - even better. I was a beta-tester and will participate in the future if they ask. And as a beta-tester I know so many of the claims being made are false. Of course, I am not allowed to speak to specifics as I signed a non-disclosure statement. But it doesn't take a keen intellect to discern those who are simply spouting off to hear their own voices.

The Sword Dojo has been a place where I've had to sift through relatively little of that- but now there is a bit more. It will subside.

I suggest we all take a vow to post meaningful, well-though comments, criticisms, questions, answers and hopes for the game. I suggest we also all listen to what one another have to say, rather than looking for fights.

As to the game itself, I think the developers have done the best they can. Woody Allen made a great comment the other day on the stump for his newest movie. He said "Every time I start a movie I have such hopes that it will be the best movie ever made. But every day we are shooting the truck full of compromises comes and drops its load." (Paraphrased a bit, but you get the idea). That is the way things are. Rare indeed do we get perfection, but we do keep trying. And I think we should give credit to the developers for doing the best they can in an industry that is infamous for its lack of delivery and follow-through. Looking over the past few years, I have spend several thousand dollars on computer games - and few meet the marks made by STW and the Expansion. Very few.

I think the online multi-player is a much harder task then people credit it to be. Having played stragegic games in the past online for over 15 years (I played in some of the early Diplomacy email games among other things) I know how hard it is to even make a relatively simple game like that work. (Simple in mechanics, not is thought). They did make progress to help us create our own online strategic game. We can now recreate armor and weapon upgrades. We can now create maps to name just two.

As to the promised patch, I believe the 1.13 patch was made moot by the release of new video drivers. There has been more misinformation on this one issue than anything else. Get a grip folks.

AND, if I'm still not mistaken, We have an EXPANSION of STW and which IS a MAJOR patch. Not a free one to be sure. But I was happy to buy it and am VERY happy with the results. AND I will keep trying to get it better.

And the game will continue to be patched as necessary as the developers have already said. Just because one doesn't agree with what they find to be in need of patching doesn't mean the developers aren't continuing to support the game.

Ok, I got a bit carried away here, but I'm really concerned that the community has messed up badly enough to cause us to lose someone as cherished, important and decent as Obake. I play to have fun, I come to the Sword Dojo to exchange ideas and have a bit of fun, and that has been tarnished. Time for us all to do some polishing.

Ok, next. . . . .

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Zen Blade]

Obake,

come back!

: (

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member

[Koga No Goshi]

Obake, thank you for your meaningful post, and for drawing attention to this issue which badly needs attention.

To be completely and bluntly honest, in a way I hope will offend no one but I know it will offend some, I think to a certain extent we are dealing with different types of gamers here. As in real life, you have instant gratification people and long term gratification people. There are some gamers who, when they find a game they like, offers good gameplay and good replay value, will play it religiously for a good long while and continue to play it sporadically long afterwards. There are other gamers who are impulsive, impatient, quickly bored, and always looking for the next most graphically and mentally dazzling game. The first type can sit back and say "I've just tried this game, it has a few problems, but I enjoy playing it and know I will enjoy playing it for months/years to come," and appreciate it, faults and all, because of it. The second group is completely unforgiving of anything they don't like in a game because they don't look at it from the perspective of "how much I'll enjoy this game over the year or more I'm playing it"... they look at it from the perspective of "Look at this crap I'll have to put up with for the next two weeks before comes out." I'm not casting judgment on either group, games are supposed to be for entertainment. I do have to go out on a limb here though and say that people need to remember that no game is custom tailored exactly to their every preference, desire and quibble, nor will any game ever be. I've been a strategy war gamer since I was 8 years old, Shogun is by far the closest to perfection any game has ever reached in the genre in my opinion.

To make a very long story short... the people who come in here most viciously running off the mouth and disgruntled with the game in a non-constructive manner, in all likelihood, will not be here in three months. That's no excuse for petulant flame-ready behavior at all, but I do think things will settle down when people who have no love or loyalty for the game have had their run with it and leave.

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Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.

[Jaguar]

I may be wrong, but i'm speaking for the so called, "Whiners" of the Sword Dojo, the ones that have gotten the game recently (past 3 months or so) and have really enjoyed it. Obake, i'm sure you remeber how excited you were when you first got the original.

Us "Newbies" heard about the X-pack, and thought, "Wow, a way to make a great game even better". We purchased it with very high expectations, to not only be as good as the first, but better. You can understand how we feel when things like the CD Key, which I suffer from myself, and other bugs make the game dare I say, worse in some cases.

So I apologize if we sound like we're "whining" when we post and ask questions about bugs in the X-pack.

Actually, I don't apologize and don't expect you too, but if ANYBODY should apologize, it should be you for insulting the community.

I'm sorry if this is not the way the community feels, but it's the way I do.


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Honour to Clan Shades!

[Gregoshi]

Obake is dead on as usual. It would do us all good to spend a little less time on the forums and more time playing the game and learning more about it. It is far too early to be pointing out balance "flaws" in a game this deep.

Remember when the Monk Rush was unstoppable? Most experienced player can handle it now.

Remember when the SP campaign was too easy? We came up with the Iron Man rules to toughen it up.

Remember when gun units were a waste of koku in online play? They seem to be a requirement now.

Remember before MI/WE came out the JNC was viewed as one of the most worthless units in the x-pack. They are winning more and more fans as time goes on.

Remember in the first week of MI/WE, the MHC was overpowered? Some players are learning how to deal with them and they aren't so tough anymore.

We are humans. We learn and we adapt. We'll learn how to deal with these "flaws". We need to spend more time learning about the game and adapting our game tactics. CA/DT isn't promising a patch "in two weeks" because they realize a sufficient evaluation period is needed before they go messing with the game balance. They will get a lot of that evaluation from us - after we've had some time to digest the game.

Lead on, Obake!

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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[This message has been edited by Gregoshi (edited 08-21-2001).]

[UglyElmo]

Darn you Obake!! But I like to whine and complain!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I still have some small hope of the game being patched to everyone's satisfaction, but I am sticking to my "No EA games statement". I enjoy this game for the people in the community and not the game itself. Shogun is one of the best games of its kind, but the Warlord's game/addition is not what was expected for me in multiplayer and much of what we suggested in question times past, was overlooked. But alas, I have run out of new things to complain about and I am now rehashing my own narcissistic diatribes against EA to assuage my own feelings of inadequacy and helplessness!! I must be spanked!! Spank me Obake!! Spank me now!!! OoOOOooOOoooooh baby! yeah! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif PS. You're still ugly!! :P

[This message has been edited by UglyElmo (edited 08-21-2001).]

[[Won-Ton] Atlus]

I apologize.

[barocca]

Obake, and indeed all members of this community,

about the whingers, they have their opinions, and i have mine,
i read what they say, and then I try to recreate the events they describe,
From there I stand by or revise my opinion,

but if they are upset, and want to complain, heck, we've all done a bit of whinging in our days around here.

MHC, people came on bitching the damn things were unstoppable,
several players read those posts, went away, practiced and found means of stopping MHC.
They then posted their results here.

Don't get exasperated and stop contributing because people are whinging, see if there is anything you can do to solve their problem,

Remember when YOU taught ME what the Monk Rush was, How it is used correctly and HOW to counter it?

Now, for the developers jugular I go,

Obake Stated
Quote but it's a fact of business that you don't continue developing for obsolete software (much as it pains me to say it, that is what the original STW is now).[/QUOTE]
So why can you still buy the Original Shogun Total War?
It is Definately on the Shelves here in Oz!

It is NOT yet obsolete, they are still selling the damn thing in the Stores,
They have a responsibility to support those people who have purchased Shogun Total War in the last couple of months, there appear to be minor changes to the box, meaning the copies of Shogun Total War (original version) are a re-issue or re-print, NOT old stock.

As for the old bugs, about which CA/DI/EA have known for MONTHS, still remaining present in WE/MI >>> Totally Reprehensible
These bugs were identified, and CA/DI/EA were most definately notified,
why not fixed?

The Shogun just asked in his 'more updates'; thread for us, the users, to organise threads on confirmed issues, likes and dislikes,
Hello?
The Bugs and Questions I pose in this thread, http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm1.showMessage?topicID=2768.topic , are all confirmed issues, meaning not just me, or something I can recreate whenever i want.

So I'll re-organise that thread into one massive post later this week, and invite anyone who can recreate a 'bug' at will to post there as well.

So, Obake, try and solve problems, most of the balance issues can be solved with practice, and a little advice, we have all bitched mightily about some issue or other over the last year!
Simply,
Don't Go!


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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)

[MajorFreak]

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Keep up the great administration of this forum...it gets a little tattered now and again, but it's worthy of alot of serious gamers' attentions. *g*

As for bitch fests, it's amazing how many people will whine and yell "nerf this, nerf that!" heh. I'd call them naive more than narcissistic. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[qwertyuiop]

Yes, when I joined a month ago the quality was top notch.

Now I have neither the time or patience to review the posts in General Discuision.
Yes, majority of vocal patrions are disapointed, enough for me.
However, you can't say this was not foreseen!

When a game of such hype comes out the people will flock. Then when they are let down they have a good place to 'bitch'.

When the dust subsides I am optimistic of a better days.

Well good luck, hope to see a quick return fore the sake of this forum.


Ah.... the good old days......
.......... Bah, what day is it?

[A Nerd]

Speaking purely monitarially, I spent $20 on the original STW and another $20 on the ex-pack ($5 shipping), and have been far more satisfied with this game than many others I bought for more (ahem-cossacks). I shall'nt go into the hours of pleasure this game, and the forum (all members included) has given me. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Shiro]

I do not wish to post something long and repeat what has been said.

With that in mind, I want to thank Obake for understanding life from a moderator's side. I know you were one once and it feels really good to have support.

[Minagawa Daimon]

can someone give me a shorter version of that? my english is kind of poor http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[KenchiKnite]

well to add how bad things have gotten, I rarely come here anymore, I used to come here alot, now I dont!

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Within a handful of ashes lies the birth of a new age, with the traditions of GOLDEN AGE, Honour to Clan Kenchikuka!

[Vanya]

This is what happens when Samurai attend Mardi Gras. Lets all have a moment of silence and thank the Jesuit invaders for delivering our heathen populace from the grips of paganism. Now, our peasants and samurai drink sake excessively in public and get into petty brawls. But, this is all happenning within a massive celebration, of sorts.

And as I tread through the crowds, I can see there are those that drink sake to celebrate the arrival of WEMI, and those that drink to condemn their lack of it. Had the game been released everywhere at once, perhaps everybody would be celebrating together.

Freud would say that all this is about... wait... hmmm... perhaps it is best not to say what that old coot would have to say about this... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Drinks another sake, thanking Buddha for avoiding the Freudian slip...]

[Irving]

Who's bitching?

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[Dark Phoenix]

Well I am guessing you dont got to the .com forums either then Leo. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

"DP is correct" - Shiro

[NagaoKagetora]

Obake!
Come back m8! You once sought me out and gave me good advice over a decision which i took awhile back. Now it is my turn to ask you to re-consider your decision!!!

There are many things that i dislike about all forums....there are many views expressed in forums which i dont agree with, but without guys like you....guys who bring sanity and reason to discussions these forums would be a lot lot worse IMO.

For me your clanmate Elmo sums it up perfectly:- "I enjoy this game for the people in the community and not the game itself" I hope you continue to post here at the org and bring your sanity to the insane!

KenchiKagetora

[Vanya]

Hey! Don't go!!!

Did Al Gore quit politics just because the voters in Palm Beach are senile?

Hmmm... maybe that's a bad example... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif