Organized talk on Richie\'s statement [Archive]

Anssi Hakkinen

08-21-2001, 03:37

To re-post here what I posted in the other thread; don't explode, like some people at the Community Forum are doing right now. Don't take it so hard you'll do things you'll regret later. I know it's hard - I know you feel betrayed - but it will pass. Most of it will, anyway. Don't burn your bridges before you're sure about where you want to go.

Then, the topic itself.

It's not the end of the world, you know. The only thing that has been *certainly* announced is that the long-awaited 1.13 will not appear, and frankly, I'm not surprised. The more it got delayed, the less likely its appearance became. To everyone at EA, the original STW is long dead and buried. Supporting it makes no sense from the commercial point of view - it's tough, but that's how capitalism works. The people who would still play the original game are a marginal fraction of a marginal fraction, and by what I've seen, many of them do not play the expansion version purely on the grounds that they don't want to sponsor the corporations by buying it - and it wouldn't make sense to render any support to them, now would it? Of course, there are always those who simply prefer the old game to the new one (in STW's case due to the morale rules etc.), but I don't know of *any* game company *ever* supporting an Old Skool Posse like that. They're simply too marginal. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

The MP campaign, then. I was one of the people who desperately wanted to believe in the online campaign's inclusion in the 'pack, never mind what the rumors said. But when they announced it wouldn't be, I kind of lost all hope - it was supposed to be in the original, it was supposed to be in a post-original patch, it was supposed to be in MI, but it wasn't, and the third time was the charm. It still hasn't been confirmed that it won't be made, but with every passing day the chances grow smaller. It was a beautiful dream. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

And finally - whoever said there won't be patches for MI? To quote the Shogun's words: Quote Any major issues in the add-on pack will looked into and prioritised and if possible / necessary, patched.[/QUOTE]This doesn't look like a death sentence to me. The "prioritised" just means they will do what they used to do - fix the more prominent bugs, and use the remaining energy on CTW. I think the various threads here have listed enough bugs to be the subject of at least one patch, and considering what kind of sales are expected for WE/MI, I would reckon even EA would approve of one patch at least. They did three for STW, they can do one for MI.

The people want a patch.

Edit: and by the Light and my hope of rebirth and salvation, the future generations be my witness, if it turns out I was *optimistic* here, I will have no more ideals to live for. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

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"Sincere diplomacy is no more possible than dry water or wooden iron."
- Josef Stalin

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 08-20-2001).]

Vanya

08-21-2001, 03:46

Heed these words of wisdom y'all: if you don't like ze game, then make one that conforms to your ideals. Get together and make your own version of what STW should be like. Sure it will take a heck of a long time, but if youz do it well, then EA will get nothing out of their efforts. And if youz give the product of your labor away from free, yee shall have more members playing your game that any other STW-like game in ze world! So get busy and make the communities own 'Shogun: World War' game!

Or you could play with what youz got and not sweat the little things. Why would we want a patch that gives us nothing feasible anyway? IF MP campaign play is not feasible, it is best to NOT have a patch that gives us a half-baked crap version of it with nothing but a sack of new bugs for all of us to complain about.

Thus, I think it would be best for EA to simply be more communicative of this whole subject matter: should they scrap the MP campaign patch, then they should offer us condolences, a partial rebate for the broken promise and a hefty justification for it!

So it has been said. So it should be done.

[Takes another big swig of warm sake. Keels over in drunken stupor, and ponders what would Chris Tucker have to say about this issue? Would he understand the words that are comming our of EA's mouth? Or that of the ORG patrons, for that matter?]

08-21-2001, 04:00

First of all, yes I am very dissapointed

Guys look at this, Shogun is one of the best strategy games, ever. A development team should take immense care of this game and constantly updating it with new patces and add-ons.

But CA are doing the opposite. Richie just said that there will be no 1.13. Sorry to say but the 3 year old Half-Life is still being constantly patched today.

The Mongol Invasion is integral part of STW so the excuse that the 'old' STW is dead is not valid. And the Multiplayer Campaign? What can I say- some people are staying here for the sole reason of waiting for it. So the dreams of a strategy map online will never come true. Damn. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

I am still waiting for the X-Pack on Friday and a list of bugs is already being made. Now as Anssi pointed out, Richie included a slum of hope by saying that any bugs in the add-one will be patched. Hope so, or is it another lie?

But, whatever, Shogun is still a superb game as it is and I love it anyway. But these news hurt me deeply.

Tera

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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

DarthGuru

08-21-2001, 04:07

what can be said other then it is no suprise... Customer support and satisfaction seems to come in a distant last on EA and CA's list, money #1... Well I will agree with Tera in that this is one of the best strategy games ever made, and no matter what I'll still love playing, and probably will continue to play. But will always give me more then second thoughts on buying anything from EA or CA ever again...

Jon

08-21-2001, 04:14

To be honest, when we heard the news that the MP would arrive in a patch later we should have smelled a rat. In all honesty, I doubt it if that very tantalising prospect will ever see the light of day. It is exactly like many patrons have already stated, games are big business, and big business only cares about yanking those notes from your hand as quickly and with as least cost as possible. As for no more patches, oh well.

Koga No Goshi

08-21-2001, 04:17

Anssi,

While I agree, the problem with Richie saying issues with the expansion would be patched if necessary was that he then made a list of the known probs players have with the expansion and addressed each as "creating more tactics" rather than as bugs. I think we will continue to see EA rationalize away that probs with the game are really just "features and as such do not need to be fixed".

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Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.

Tsunobushi

08-21-2001, 04:23

I must disagree about continuing support for STW. As long as EA continues to sell the original Shogun Total War game on their website, they should continue to support the product.
From a purely business standpoint this makes sense. Customer satisfaction and loyalty are very important. One of the reasons support tends to be so poor these days is the prevailing attitude among consumers that it doesn't matter whether we buy or not. We go ahead and buy things from companies after they have let us down and this encourages the companies to lessen the support and quality of their products.
I find it distubing that on so many fan sites these days people are constantly told not to be upset that the games they love aren't getting the promised support. This is a breach of faith on the part of software companies and fans should be incensed over it. Aquiesence to subpar support merely ensures that later products from that company will be worse. The fault lies not so much with the companies that we complain about but with ourselves as consumers. If we had the discipline to not purchase add-ons and expansions for games that have recieved poor support we might see an increase in the level of that support.

08-21-2001, 05:08

Maybe Koga, but I don't find any tactics for the overpower of the mongol cavs (except extreme numerical strenght, maybe) and its just one example.

And the fact that you cannot play mongol vs mongol is just ridiculous.

Tera

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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

08-21-2001, 05:17

sadly i am not a patron, just a messenger

a list of patrons are grouped into a patching which list project, lets see with what they will come up.

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Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]

DoCToR

08-21-2001, 05:47

Seven things to say:

1. I am now not surprised about the lack of a STW patch with the arrival of MI which itself patches the game.....any serious fan of STW will be purchasing the expansion anyway, so why bother with another time consuming patch!!! SIMPLE

2. However, it would have been nice to see the patch arrive when it should have all those many moons ago!

3. I can understand the problems with the online campaign and respect the fact that the developers aren't able to bring that to us now.....hold yer horses till the Crusaders arrive and i'm sure you'll see a multiplayer campaign of sort!

4. Am disappointed that us betatesters weren't used to our full potential....

5. EA have been a disgrace, but no blame extends to the Developers at Creative Assembley.....

6. Would have appreciated better communication between CA/EA and us here on the forums throughout the past year....would've helped to alleviate much angst and pent-up aggression, which resulted from being kept in the dark for so long over the many eagerly awaited updates!

7. The arrival of Target to the forums again was a major boost.....many thanks to him and may your skin grow ever thicker http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Regards,

DOC

Khan7

08-21-2001, 05:50

Well, this is the first I heard that there would be no MP campaign, and frankly I'm kinda upset, and thinking about revolt.. a little revolt might do some good, if its effectiveness could be assured..

Oh well, I would agree with near all of what has been said above, and will only add-- such is life.

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Khan7

Lord Aeon

08-21-2001, 05:53

I told myself that i wouldn't post in this thread, mostly because i thought it was flame bait, but as it has remained civil, i figured i might give it a quick go.

Since i already have the expansion, i was not hit as hard by the news that the patch wouldn't be coming out. I sort of expected as much anyway... it was just a hunch.

Honestly, i am really looking forward to the next Total War game and would rather that CA spend their time making that game an excellent venture. With respect to the online campaign... well... the SP campaign is fun enough for me. I can sit here and play that and not tie up my phone line. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

MagyarKhans Cham

08-21-2001, 06:13

ha i have just been ordered to deliver the Khans statement (lucky me)

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Dear community

As some of us suspected for maybe 6 or more months we are being "used" and not taken seriously as a community in every aspect.

They want us to believe that they listen, and they do listen but sadly only to what they want to hear.

If u track all the postingdates of their -"hyping up"- promises and pullbacks than u will find the plain (marketing) strategy in it. Nothing more nothing less.

I am convinced the core-programmers want to deliver us a good game but they are just little man in a big moneymaking world.

It would be stupid to believe they cant make the campaign. what they mean is they cant do it in the given time and as real tech-boys i am sure they made it themselves very hard by trying to copy the SP campaign into a MP version. i am convinced a more simple version would be fine as well, we might be dissapointed that it wouldnt be the same but eventually we would have had accepted it.

What strikes me the most besides not doing what they promised is the lack of feeling guilty (somehow) and trying to pay us back (somehow).

Maybe a first attempt of this "somehow" from their side is the possibility to change the unitstats ourselves. That was a nice thing but we cant reproduce a campaign ourselves with it. we would be more happy with some other options like being able to host games with broken units (like 15 hcav, 54 archers) and so on. even a thing like being able to host different kokuvalues for both sides didnt made it to their minds but would give us more options to do things ourselves.

Not bringing out the longtime promised patch is bad costumer service and shows the shortterm marketing strategy, eventually everyone will be pushed to the new game and server.

The marketeers spreaded a nice fog by promising the Crusaders game for next summer, so making it for others involved easier to shelter behind the argument that they are fully busy with the programming for the new game. Promising us something new even before they didnt finished the add on! That happend us before!

I noticed from my illegal version (sorry still waiting for a promised copy from ea)
that the add on is a rushed-made game. it has its good points. Ofcourse, the game is initially the best we all played in this genre. But if u look closely than u might find some "clues" for the lack of refinements (esp. compared with the original version.) A funny "clue" i like (NOT!) is the english harbor-worker shouting that his opponent is a whipped dog. Another one is "the grain circles" for deployment on the big maps. Look closely yourself, there are more...

As the Khan of Khans u might figure my heart expected the best somone could wish for, luckily a sixth sense protected me for being too optimistic. I expected a disaster, and that it !wasNT! TWhistory showed that, if u remember the patch 1.12, they can do things as what we want, rightfully, without big dissapointments.

So what do they need for a patch? They need outstanding feedback. Although these forums are a platform for discussions and statements imo the forums will hardly provide a "broadcarried" community opinion.

Thats why a large group of wellknown players/posters/clanleaders are trying to tackle the problems by collecting facts & suggestions from these forums into a list. Eventually this list will be known by many of u and will be handed to the developers.

For me it is the best thing the "community" can do for now. And it must show to CA/DT/EA that we are a serious community which have to be taken serious. This will be our (last) test for them invoked by us. These projectmanagers/marketeers are smart guys, a negative reaction from them will harm them bigtime in the future (next summer?). A positive reaction towards us all in this phase would set a nice example for the future.
Furthermore i wondered why the marketeers dont use our broad community base a "point of sales". i.e. Look at the number of posts on this form , it is massive!

We are the community! Lets unite and act as one and things will be changed... U can break an arrow, u can break 2 but u cant break 5!!!!

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Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by MagyarKhans Cham (edited 08-21-2001).]

Khan7

08-21-2001, 06:18

On the one hand-- the guys at CA have kinda betrayed us consistently. On the other hand-- I think most people here underestimate the pressures they are operating under, and how much work in general it takes to make a game etc. etc. For instance, their pursestrings are held by a large corporation, they ARE doing revolutionary work here, and we have to bear in mind the less-than-stellar popularity of original STW. I think this all combines to mean that they are constrained and confined in certain ways, and that they aren't so much lazy as they are fighting for their very survival and have to make priorities.

People talk about patches for Half-Life and whatnot.. but they forget one thing-- Half-Life was a WILDLY popular game. CONTINUES TO BE. Shogun Total War, despite its near-total superiority to all competitors, has barely gotten a whiff from anyone except the press and experts who write the reviews and the few smart/lucky ones (us) who actually have managed to figure out the fact that the game rocks like hell.

So that's my more expanded opinion on this.. at any rate I think it would be better if CA just came out and said "Hey guys! WE ARE UNDER PRESSURE HERE! We don't need any more from you!".. but it seems that they take a "Our customers are dumb so we'll let them rant and rave no point in enlightening them it wouldn't shut them up." attitude.

So this is to Richie or whoever on the CA team may hear it: we're not dumb, if there are truly legitimate reasons why you can't do enough for us, just say so and you'd probably get less flak about it. I personally am of the opinion that Total War fans are a stolid and tolerant bunch, and if you are suffering we have no problem with suffering along with you. But the darkness is maddening and will only drive many loyal customers away.

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Khan7

Khan7

08-21-2001, 06:27

hehehe Magyar, that just reminds me of the Kurosawa movie Ran, in which the aged great daimyo uses that same example with his three sons who he wants to divide his lands and power between (though it was 3 arrows not 5), and the third son takes the 3 arrows and breaks them over his knee..

Anyway, that was totally irrelevant, but I thought I'd just randomly interject that..

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Khan7

JAG

08-21-2001, 06:32

me like many of you are very very dissapointed by this news. . but if i am totaly honest i did not expect there to be another patch for shogun CA are too busy on the new game for a small company.

as for the multiplay campain i am a bit more surprised with this news as i thought they would start it just wheather they finished it! but this seems to me that they havent even strated! b4 i had bout maybe 40% chance of it being downloadable with this news i give it 15% if that!

again i am dissapointed! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

i do not blame richie as it was ea pressing for time which kept the multiplayer campaign out the first time!

lets still hope that we will get the campaign!!

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Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

BSM_Skkzarg

08-21-2001, 06:48

Guys, as a tech who has worked with dev teams before, let me say this - developers want 2 things - to do the project right - and the time they need to do it in! Alot of ppl are hammering CA right now - and I can understand that, but realize that CA is not the problem. They have a budget and a timeline and a project lead telling them "We need this piece of code YESTERDAY!".

EA holds the blame for this - and while I am disappointed I will not cease purchasing quality games from EA over it. If its quality then I am willing to pay for it. Is WE/MI quality - yes and no. Is it worth the $40 they asked - probably not. Is it worth the $25 I ended up paying for it - yes provided they stand by the product and issue a patch to correct the most obvious flaws.

One thing I totally agree on is that beta-testers were not used enough. Simply put - had they been more of the issues we are dealing with now would have been dealt with. Again, speaking from experience, QA analysis is not easy or cheap, and having people willing to do it for free just for a chance to help the product be the best it can be is a money saving godsend that should be used to its fullest!

I hope that EA wisens up and allows CA the time to both correct WE/MI and also to do crusaders correctly.

As for Shogun being the greatest in the genre - yes it is - but give it time. If EA doesn't get a cure for their service and support woes, another company will end up remaking or revisiting the Shogun style game and will do it better. Such is the nature of competition - I only wish it wouldn't take a couple of years to occur.

Be patient and honorable my friends, and you shall be rewarded. Perhaps not by EA, but it will come.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

Koga No Goshi

08-21-2001, 08:33

I hate to sound like I'm complaining, but I do have to make this point. We say we understand them dropping the 1.13 patch so they can work on STW2. But I can't help but feel we're going to experience deja vu with the second game. If they wouldn't stand by the first game, why would they for the second?

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Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.

UglyElmo

08-21-2001, 09:08

The thing that dissappoints me the most is that EA seems to make a habit of playing us for fools. If they would have said; "the old STW game is no longer a priority for us, we are going to have our developers/programmers concentrate on fixing the new game", that would have been fine. Unfortunately they kept saying, "The new patch will be out in a little while longer", then they said; "The patch will be out when the new game comes out." Same for the online campaign. First it was; It will be in the new game", then it was; It will be added as a patch". Now that people have purchased it it is; "Well we are not going to include it because we had too much trouble making it work". If they couldn't get it to work, no problem, but tell us before we buy the game that it will not be included. I now must wonder if there ever was an attempt at a patch 1.13 and if there ever was an attempt at an online campaign. If they were really concerned about the communities' attitude, they should at least offer us a means to run our own campaign games online. Provide a large map, a way to keep track of stats for each player, province etc. . . but all we hear is . . . . . . do you hear anything? I don't. I do not hold The Shogun or Target accountable for any of this, I hold EA accountable. That is why I will never purchase another EA game, no matter how great it may be. They have not even provided any of the tourney winners with their promised free mongol game (most have now bought the game, because they have not heard anything to let them know it is being sent and their emails have been ignored.) Another lie it seems. That is the biggest reason for my whining and complaining, not the game itself, it is the lies and deceptions. I will no longer post on this subject. I have stated my feelings on it and will let it go. To the moderators: If you wish, you have my permission to delete any and all of my posts on this subject. It will not hurt my feelings. I know how hard it is to be a moderator and not get caught up in all the hoopla. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

CeltiberoSkullXIII

08-21-2001, 18:34

BOTH SUCK EA & CA no way to change that they don't use the passion from gamers to gamers they only think to fullfill their pockets!

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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif

DoCToR

08-21-2001, 19:26

Quote Originally posted by CeltiberoSkullXIII:
BOTH SUCK EA & CA no way to change that they don't use the passion from gamers to gamers they only think to fullfill their pockets!

[/QUOTE]

That's just the sort of daft comment that some Dojo members are complaining about! ;o(

It's neither constructive or useful...

Fatboy

08-21-2001, 19:41

I am extremely annoyed & disappointed with EA's cancellation of the multiplayer add-on.

As an IT guy I know these things happen but what I find totally unacceptable is that we were not told until AFTER SW was released! Were EA worried this news might have hurt sales? Would you have purchased a copy knowing that multiplayer would never be released? I wouldn't have. Misleading & deceptive conduct is what the lawyers call it!

Shame EA ... Shame

KukriKhan

08-21-2001, 20:35

Fatboy, I think you're on the right track. EA is just using the MicroSoft business model, where they actually plan the obsolescence of their product, only in 2 years instead of M$'s 6. They have to make a game, get it out the door quickly, patch it twice, then move on to the next game. At $40 a pop, that's all they can afford.

Would anyone pay, say $100 for a game with guaranteed support for 4 years? Probably not. The game-buyer willingness to pay remains at about $40, where it's been for years.

I eagerly await the day when PC games are built to perform over a peer-to-peer network, negating the need for a central server and its costs.

PLEASE m8's, don't misconstrue this post as support for EA. I'm just saying that, in a business sense, I (sadly) understand.

hach

08-21-2001, 21:38

Where you from Doctor in Scotland?
I'm in Edinburgh.

Hach

Dark Phoenix

08-21-2001, 21:46

I think it is a bit tough blaming CA for this. They are a small company and would depend heavily on the money to develop patches from EA. They have made what 2 games whoch while they have sold quite a few I dont think they have made enough to be able to fund a patch to pay all teh staff that would be requred and other stuff involved. I would lay the blame squarely with EA on this as we all know what they are like.

I think I know what EA stands for Evil Assholes. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

I am no hero I just like to hit people in the head. :p

Bohemond

08-21-2001, 21:59

I'm not at all surprised. "honour" or "faith" cannot be expected from acompany that has to compete. Let's hope they put "professional" efforts into CTW though, because this must be expected.

DoCToR

08-21-2001, 22:28

Quote Originally posted by hach:
Where you from Doctor in Scotland?
I'm in Edinburgh.

Hach[/QUOTE]

I am from Edinburgh to..! Usually to be found abiding in the Tollcross/Bruntsfield area...

You? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

DarkSword

08-22-2001, 00:04

eheheheh.....now you know why i haven't buy the Xpack!....hehehe...heed my words

those who don't learn from history will be their undoing!!!!!...wahhahahahah... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

VoodooChild

08-22-2001, 00:46

A lot of good points here, and like others I'm not surprised, but it will influence some of my purchasing decisions in the future.

The point I would like to bring up it this: Xpack seems to be a fairly stable product as far as bugs and crashes go. This was a surpise to me given the problems with orig STW. Most of the complaints I've read are really not bugs per sec but game balance issues. Given Rich's statement, I doubt these issues will be given any thought for a patch.

barocca

08-22-2001, 01:26

1. Bugs identified within the original STW are still present in WE/MI.

2. STW is still available on the shelves, a re-issue, not just old stock, if they are going to keep selling it they should still support it.

3. a list of many of the identitifed bugs in WE/MI can be found here, http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm1.showMessage?topicID=2768.topic
I will be 'collating' into a new and tidier thread later this week, possibly saturday.

4. patch 1.13 should be released. We have been promised this patch since november 2000.

5. We have also been repeatedly promised the MP campaign.

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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)

Nelson

08-22-2001, 01:59

If the MP campaign is a litmus test for some folks then the results are in. Don't buy it. No one who has followed the MP campaign story from the beginning should be surprised at all. Refusing to see the writting on the wall for the last 14 months is inexcusable. The bellyaching on this really ought to stop. The horse is dead. We can stop flogging it.

As for patches, well, when new software versions appear support for the old stuff dries up. Duh! CA never said that MI/WE won't be supported. In fact, Target has said that they will consider changes. I'm satisfied with that.

hach

08-22-2001, 02:04

Hi Doctor.

Your more of a city centre guy.
I,m more western outskirts Broomhall/Carrick Knowe/Corstorphine area.

Who's your ISP?
Not Telewest by chance?

Hach

Yomama

08-22-2001, 03:42

Just my 2cents.
As an IT professional systems integrator I work for a software company and we have published software products and the one product I work with has about 25 developers (VB, C++, Java..all that stuff).
ANY upgrade or 'patch' we do is first weighed totally upon the ROI (Return on Investment) vs the cost of paying the developers to create a new version or do a patch.
We have put customers who have invested over 1 million dollars on notice that we will not support their 2.0 next year ... they MUST upgrade. Why? We cannot afford to pay the developers to maintain the old and at the same time develop the new. Each one of those guy makes from $35K (entry level) to $85K+ per year. We roll improvements into the next release. We DO patches when there are defects which show up in the field which snuck past QC, but that's it.
Now, how much do you think EA AND CA get at $40.00 a box? We sell out software (one CD) for $250,000, and we don't guarantee you'll live forever on one release.
I get burned by BAD games right out the box ..games that SUCK and were all marketing from the getgo. STW has been well worth my money and I got big ROI in the entertainment I got.
Should you all let EA and CA 'off the hook'? Not necessarily ... they need to know what's going on 'out there'..BUT, there is a constructive way to do this and a little understanding goes a long way. Developers generally work their ASS OFF and only hear "why didn't you do this .. or that..you idiot!"
I love STW ... they did a great job!

MagyarKhans Cham

08-22-2001, 04:00

i see a difference between statements from guys with 100+ posts and guys with 20- posts

A Nerd

08-22-2001, 06:34

I would like to say that we should stop complaining about the ex-pack and look to the sequel...sure we may be 'buying into the hype', but, perhaps the reason there are no patches is because they are pouring their greedy little souls into a potentially profitable sequel that most likely will suffer many delays past the original release date. Who knows, all of our woes over MI bugs and lack of MP campaigns may be answered with the sequel. Those crusading zelot knights of EA and CA may bring it back from the gold plated holy land that is this modern capitalist giant that we all hate to support as we druel for the impending release dates.

Algesan

08-22-2001, 08:11

Quote Originally posted by Running Backwards:
I would like to say that we should stop complaining about the ex-pack and look to the sequel...sure we may be 'buying into the hype', but, perhaps the reason there are no patches is because they are pouring their greedy little souls into a potentially profitable sequel that most likely will suffer many delays past the original release date. Who knows, all of our woes over MI bugs and lack of MP campaigns may be answered with the sequel. Those crusading zelot knights of EA and CA may bring it back from the gold plated holy land that is this modern capitalist giant that we all hate to support as we druel for the impending release dates.[/QUOTE]

And some day pigs will fly and we will call them pigeons? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

MagyarKhans Cham

08-22-2001, 08:15

lol that was a fun answer towards a highly naive post

barocca

08-22-2001, 08:40

Patch 1.13 was going to ensure that people with the original version could play online against people who have the ex-pack version, this feature should be delivered as promised.

STW has been re-released, there are bugs in STW that have not been fixed, these should also be addressed in patch 1.13.

Patch 1.13 has been touted since november 2000 as 'coming soon'.

How much coding would be required to fix F1 and the Rout Bug issue?
How much coding to allow compatability?
If they have been working on the patch 'as described' then it should have been near completion as promised.

They have re-released STW,
they have been promising Bug Fixes and Compatability with WE/MI since November 2000,
they should deliver on their often stated promise.

No excuses.

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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)

Lord Aeon

08-22-2001, 09:10

Hmmm... i think the post by Running Backwards is actually quite accurate. I don't know about you guys, but STW isn't the only game i play. I keep up with trends in the industry, etc., and i need to point out to you guys that game projects are never finished, only abandoned. It's all about cost-effectiveness. And once it becomes no longer lucrative to support or improve a project, it gets the ol' heave ho.

Rather, i think it would be "naive" to believe ANYTHING a corporation tells you by way of "promises". You can safely bet on the completion of projects that will make a company money, since that's their business. In other words, these guys make games to make money, not to make you or i happy. You can also bet that if a project (e.g. a free downloadable patch) won't net the company any money, there will be very little effort put forth to complete it.

In summary, you guys are wasting your time being angry about this. Some of us are realists; some of us are idealists. Not that you aren't entitled to your feelings, but i have found that wasted emotion is... well... wasted energy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

BTW, i don't think these attitudes are a function of how many posts you have, or how long you've been playing this particular game. One shouldn't minimalize other people's opinions just because they don't have a pretty picture under their names on the left side of their posts. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

Leon

08-22-2001, 10:54

But by making us happy and releasing patches, won't that make them more money in the long run? It builds trust...

That's part of the reason why sequels like Age of Empires II and Diablo II are so wildly successful. And why future games from these two developers will also be successful.

Witness Ensemble Studioes with the two Age of Empire games and Blizzard with Starcraft and Diablo games. They constantly finetune their games taking input from hardcore players, rebalancing the units and releasing them in a patch.

Take a look at this example: Ensemble just recently released a 1.0c patch to stop map hacking in preparating for a big upcoming tournament. Now that's what I call support. It makes me happy and all of the players happy. Take a look at Shogun: The route bug still exists. This does not build trust or confidence in what this company can do and will actually LOSE them money in the long run.

[This message has been edited by Leon (edited 08-22-2001).]

Leon

08-22-2001, 10:56

double post.

[This message has been edited by Leon (edited 08-22-2001).]

Khan7

08-22-2001, 11:18

Well, it all comes down to what it's looking like from the commander's chair. If they are REALLY suffering, then they probably have made a business decision to let a few things slide. I however am still mystified by the continuing policy of keeping us all in the dark as to just WHY they made these decisions. As I've said, there may be legitimate reasons why they've done the things they've done, but the fact that they don't explain it makes one suspicious (and perhaps quite rightly so!).

Anyway, for an example of a small game developer that works their butts off, look to Matrix games. The great guys down there have done a large amount of work CONSTANTLY upgrading and improving a FREE GAME (which happens to be the best modern combat sim currently on the market, SPWAW). Go to http://www.matrixgames.com/Games/SP-WorldAtWar/ to download your free copy (if you either have a good connection or several consecutive days to download the 400-some megs of it). There are also a few other VERY HIGH QUALITY full, free games available for download there.

Anyway, what this has done for them is (1) build their name, build UNPARALELLED support and loyalty from their customers, (2) make special addon features (essentially whole new games in themselves) which tag on to the free games and which they charge money for, which all helps them out in (3) sales of paying games which they have made or are currently making.

Anyway, I think the big problem for CA is that EA gives them no flexibility to do stuff right.. and such is life, goddammit.

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Khan7

Dunhill

08-22-2001, 11:44

I'm hopeful that EA/CA will respond to a very specific request for a patch. If we just succintly state our request, including a list of simple requirements for the patch, we might get what we want.

Then again, I'm a rather optomistic fellow.

I also have to play the xpack for a bit longer to state what I would want from it, but simple things like being albe to adjust koku for each side, and make an all-units available era are a good start, that seems easy enough?

These people arn't total fools, such small things would provide much for their current customers, and possibly encourage more sales?

Just a thought.

Khan7

08-22-2001, 11:52

And don't forget a Mongol vs. Mongol option. This one would probably be more work than one would think, due to the way they handled certain issues in the expansion (think morale), but it would neither be excessively difficult nor unrealistic at all. Hell, how do you think the Mongols consolidated their state? By fighting eachother. How do you think they conquered to Chinese/Koreans? By fighting them. It would be a pain to provide all the right circumstances and limitations to make such meetings of Mongols historically believable (at least as historically believable as MP Jap v Jap is, which I admit isn't much hehe), but simply allowing it to happen without worrying about such details would add an incredible lot to the game and make people SOOOO happy.

Anyway, that's 2 more cents which makes 4 total (or maybe more, heck I lose track :-) ).

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Khan7

Algesan

08-22-2001, 12:27

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
lol that was a fun answer towards a highly naive post[/QUOTE]

If you are referring to my response to Running's post, he is hopeful. After dealing for a few years with Verant, I am not. EA is seemingly cast in the same mold of not providing support for bug fixes and lying to their customers.

However, for all the "bottom line" style posts, perhaps you can explain how Blizzard is still supporting and patching the original Diablo? True, not often, but it is still there on a freeplay server and IIRC the last patch was in the last year, _after_ Diablo 2 was out.

DoCToR

08-22-2001, 17:44

Hach,

Yup, you'd be correct there...Telewest Blueyonder it is!

Ahh Corstorphine/Carrick Knowe, i know the area well.. In fact, used to have a job up Clermiston "fecking" hill! You must be quite fairly near that massive purple coloured PC world monstrosity http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Ever visit Tynecastle to watch HEarts play, assuming you like footie that is...

DOC

hach

08-22-2001, 19:05

Doctor

I work for Telewest!!!
But i'm still using 56k as apparently staff are getting free Broadband soon'so i'm waiting hopefully.
Too stingy to pay for it.

I hate the scum at PCWORLD.
They are the only people on the planet i can think of worse than EA.
I'm about 10 minutes walk from that monstrosity of an eyesore.

Brothers a Jambo'but i'm afraid i'm Rangers as spent 16 years in Livingston'so the Glasgow influence rubbed off me at school.

Hearts were dead jammy a few years ago in that cup final.They get a penalty outside the box and we get denied a stonewall one inside the box!! (^_^)

Hach

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The greatest thrill in life is not to Kill'but to let live!!!!

hach

08-22-2001, 19:07

P.S Doctor

Is'nt it amazing the amount of Celtic Top wearing people who suddenly magically appeared in the last year.

Hach

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The greatest thrill in life is not to Kill'but to let live!!!!

DoCToR

08-22-2001, 19:58

Hehehehhe hun barsteward http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Aye, the Jambos were fairly lucky in that cup final, although having lost the previous 2 finals 5-1 and 4-3 it was about time we got some luck! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I was at that cup final winning match too!!

But you're right about the Celtic tops...even in Edinburgh there are heaps of Celtic and Rangers fans...

When Hearts won the cup about 100,000 people took to the streets! Where are all these closet Jambos hiding week in week out ;(

Still...will ya waiting on PC world's Purple doorstep come Friday? OR are ya getting it delivered straight to your house..? Me, i'll be heading straight for Virgin after work, bah fecking work... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

DOc

hach

08-22-2001, 20:21

I work at south gyle so will be going to EB on my kunch though a sickie is possible!!!

Hun Basteward??
At least we write our own songs'Part time Proddy!!! (^_^)

So where you working Doctor?
Let me guess??The Infirmary?

Hach

DoCToR

08-22-2001, 20:34

hehehe!

I work out in a Contract Research Organisation based at Riccarton...although not a medical doctor i do have a doctorate in Neuroscience http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

So i am not far from South Gyle actually, so i may pop down Friday lunchtime and purchase it too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

BRing it on...

DOC

hach

08-22-2001, 21:38

Doctor let me tell you fortune.

I see a LAN game in the not to distant future.I see a man in a Blue T-Shirt spanking
the ass of another poor man in Maroon!!!!

(^_^)

Hach

Masago

08-22-2001, 21:53

Hi all!
I've read all this post with very interest...
I'm from Italy and i'm goingi to buy MI this friday...but after all this...I believe that I'm gonna think seriously...
I've expected this X-pack as a great event, but I don't want to have such a big disappointement!!!
I hope Richie will read this post, like the other, cause I think many other will desert the shops...
Probably i'm going to continue playing STW...only...
Hi
Masago

DoCToR

08-22-2001, 21:54

Quote Originally posted by hach:
Doctor let me tell you fortune.

I see a LAN game in the not to distant future.I see a man in a Blue T-Shirt spanking
the ass of another poor man in Maroon!!!!

(^_^)

Hach[/QUOTE]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Aye, i have had those LAN visions too, although i think i'll leave the spanking part for my monkey http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

May yer blades be blunt, yer guns fire blanks and yer priests impotent!

DOC

Lord Aeon

08-22-2001, 22:02

See, this is what i'm talking about. This honorable person is considering NOT buying the x-pack; not because of any perceived problems really, but because we are all complaining that people who DON'T have the x-pack won't be able to play online against people who DO (unless, of course, they have the original, which almost all of us certainly do).

Honorable sir, please note that this may not be a good reason to pass on buying the x-pack, as i believe it is worth the money. You should reconsider. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

This is not the way it should be. This announcement wasn't exactly unexpected. There will most likely be a patch for MI/WE, AND AS SOON AS EVERYONE ACTUALLY GETS THE EXPANSION AND ALL OPINIONS ARE LOGGED, the devs will make decisions about what should be in it.

No 1.13 patch... what difference does it make? We're all buying/have already bought the expansion anyway.

No multiplayer campaign... this isn't news. We KNEW this already.

I don't know. I must be missing something... someone please explain it to me. Really.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."