Newbie Question - Weapon Upgrades for Missile Units

[Loh]

Pardon my newbieness, I've been lurking on these boards since the original STW and have recently started playing WE.

I've beaten the 1530 (Hojo) and 1550 (Oda) on Expert, and am now trying to beat back the Mongol Horde, also on Expert. Just had my first run not an hour ago, and I'm hemorrhaging troops like crazy ... I'm going to restart and try a different approach. I'll work something out.

But I digress.

My question is - do Swordsmith upgrades make your Archer projectiles any deadlier?

My guess is no, it only makes them better in hand-to-hand combat. Just want confirmation, don't want to be skipping Sword upgrades for my Totomi archers if it's somehow going to help against the horde.

Btw, they've really made SP hell of a lot better from STW, I haven't had so much challenge from the AI before. Expert is a blast - I have had to use the full gamut of units - Shinobi, Ninja, Emissaries, Border Forts in every port as well as all the units (except the Kensai and Battlefield Ninja - I usually win by the time I can start producing them).

In my 1550 game, I saw heir resurrections THREE times, and I almost fainted when I saw Hojo make a Geisha before I did ... lucky I had an honour 7 ninja around. The second Geisha he made promptly killed my freshly minted Geisha, grrrr.

I think I also switched alliances like 4 or 5 times as the balance of power changed - I assassinated Shimazu and all his heirs - forgetting that they then join whoever are their allies - and I suddenly have to deal with Takeda on two fronts. Then the idiot Mori dies of old age (his heir I killed in battle), and Mori lands then become Hojo.

Man, I had to play Uesugi, Hojo and Takeda off each other just to protect my holdings - each time one grew too powerful, I would have to switch allies and go beat the more powerful one down so that the two most powerful could keep each other in check while I went to beat up on the third. I have never needed to be so scummy in my diplomatic dealings in my entire life - it was a blast http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Anyway, I've rambled on for too long now - I just need to confirm that swordsmith thing so I don't waste resources when I need every bit versus the Mongols.

P.S. I've been reading couple of threads where they talk about how "revolutions when Daimyo dies" being a bug. It isn't one, it's a feature, and one that I like very much - makes the game a whole lot more challenging. Revolutions don't happen in EVERY province though, just those with

[Hosakawa Tito]

Loh,your assumption is correct.The weapon's upgrade is for hand to hand combat,swords,not projectiles.Increasing the honor of your archers will increase their skill with the bow,leading to more kills.Also try to employ your archers with a height advantage if possible.Some of our more astute players seem to feel that on flat terrain archers hit behind their intended targets,I believe they are right.However from above,they seem to hit much better.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[Loh]

Thank you Hosokawa for the confirmation http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I do make good use of elevation, and yes - on flat terrain the arrows will miss or only hit the back ranks of moving targets.

If they are walking uphill however, they move much slower, and a lot more arrows hit.

Again, my thanks!

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One day, maybe ...

[Gothmog]

I have one more question and some comments.

First, question, how effective are the armor upgrades on the archers? I ask this become sometimes it's almost inevitable for the missle units to sustain hostile missle fire (ie: archer duel).

Second, god those archers can be really dealy, especially to their comrades in the same units. I recently developed a habit to look into the log file, and some units make more friendly kills than intentional ones!!

Of second thought, there might be some good use on that "unintentional kill". I remember once during a caslte asault, the enemy lined cavalry behind the naginata, which was placed at the gate. I aimed at the naginata, knowing that my archers will miss and hit the cavalry instead. Gee, how they slaughtered those horsemen!

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Armor upgrades on archers are immensely useful. It allows them to easily win those Archer Duels you speak of. However, one interesting point is the "friendly" fire you mentioned. Stretch your archers into a 2 rank line and they will not kill each other by accident.
Also - try using xbowmen! These little buggers actually seem more sturdy under arrow fire than archers. Their range is slightly shorter but they do more damage than arrows.... On a decent hill they can hit archers about the same time that archers can hit them. With the additional damage - the little guys rock. Add in the cheap cost.... and wow!
LOL


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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
However, one interesting point is the "friendly" fire you mentioned. Stretch your archers into a 2 rank line and they will not kill each other by accident.
[/QUOTE]

Hehe, I ALWAYS deploy them in double rank line.

[VoodooChild]

not to mention that xbows have more shots than the mongol light calvary or samurai archers... but they are only available in vs. Mongol games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Koga No Goshi]

I have heard that weapon upgrades to missle troops in expansion MP games makes a huge noticeable difference. Anyone care to comment?

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Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.

[Kiwi]

In the previous version I always used two ranks - unless I had no option - and I still had a lot of "friendly" kills. I have noticed that with the expansion the number of "friendly kills" is noticeably lower. Any comments?

In my opinion a huge improvement in the new game. I do archery as a hobby so it is a wee bit annoying to believe that highly trained archers in two ranks were killing each other that often. Though I must admit that there is one guy at my club......

[Khan7]

Friendly fire casualties in an archer's own unit are something I've seen on maybe 3 occasions the entire time I've played this game (which is since October 2000). I prefer to put them in 4-rank formations, because of the balance between the wider distribution of men that is generally advantageous for both firing and missle defense purposes and the feasibility of a 4-ranked formation in melee, and the advantage of the shape of the volley that a 4-ranked formation makes. But if I want to cram archers into a shorter line I'll use all sorts of big boxy formations. Never have any trouble with FF.

Basically a 2-ranked formation is going to spread out your force so much that you can't concentrate it properly unless you put archer units BEHIND one another which believe me DOES cause friendly fire casualties, though this can be mitigated if the units are properly spaced or the unit behind is also at a higher elevation (it's all about a clear line of fire). It also creates a certain shape of volley which is going to tend to do what you guys are saying-- miss and go long.

The advantages of fatter formations do however have to be weighed against the disadvantages-- it is generally better if you are placing on a hill to place just below the summit on the downward slope-- that way all of the archers will generally have a clear line of fire down to the target. Thinner formations let you fit the unit close to the slope, and produce less for you to think about with undulations of terrain. Fatter formations are also going to take more damage from enemy volleys.

But also, a fatter formation is going to make it easier to put your unit into a loose formation because it will not take up as much frontage. And it means you can more easily direct fire, because all the archers are more localized and not stretched all out to where perhaps they're not in optimal range for the target of the unit.

Anyway, that's just a little piece of my mind, didn't have much time to compose it. I do consider myself to be somewhat of a missle unit expert..

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Khan7