The shogun community is already making me feel nausiated.

[Steve Macduff]

I have only played shogun for a few hours (that is the origonal, havn't even tried the new one yet). That being said, I think this is one of he most ungreatful communities I have ever seen. We can line tis right up next to the pre-teen Counter Strike forums.

First, the game has been out for 3 days. Already people are bi.tching about how they dislike the balance and how you can only attack the enemy. I mean, it isn't like they arn't going to patch the game! You expect a perfect piece of software out the door immidiately? I am a hardcore MMORPG fan, and maybe I have become much more leaniant after bearing through the Anarchy Online release, but this is just disturbing.

I figured the age range here would large and the average age would probably be 19ish because of the setting of the game (kids who like RTA usually swarm to the latest westwood release) yet it seems rare the I even see a post where the author bothers to use capital letters and punctuation.

Now, I am only 17 and need to be a little careful with my money. I usually download the warez version of games before I buy (I got a feeling I am going to regret sayinbg that, don't want to turn thi into a ethics in gaming post) then if I like it I go out and buy the game. Demos can be misleading... I prefer to try the whole game before I buy. After playing the warez version of the origional shogun for about 3 hours last week I have already preordered Warlords Edition... one of the rare times I trust a gaming company to diliver, and it seems in my eyes they have.

Compare this expansion pack to those of blizzard and westwood... these guys gave you a whole second campagne, a whole new nationality (which is a big deal in a game that origionally only have one), a map editior, and severa other improvements to the game.

I just can't see what you all are complaining about. I am starting to almost regret ordering this game because I was looking foreward to huge epic multiplayer battles with somewhat mature people... guess I was mistaken.

-Steve

[A Nerd]

Your friendly! Lots of people are going to want to challenge you! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Khan7]

Good stinkin' loooord, we've got psycho newbies coming from all directions! We're being surrounded! Retreat, men, fall back to the forest!!

[DarkSword]

Wow a good flame out
-plz return the game if you don't like it....

-you don't have to come and read the forums if you don't want to

-if you don't like the players then don't play them.

-if u need a breather plz take a breathe

-if you need anything plz don't hesitate to ask....

but plz don't judge before you realize teh extent or the history of these threads.....the average age of the players is older then you think....

[DarthGuru]

this is getting out of hand... WOW

[Steve Macduff]

I ca take back the game if I want and I can stop readint eh board if I want, it is beyond the point. What I am trying to say is the community is, from what I have seen so far, going to ruin the multiplayer experience (at least for me).

This red line stuff I keep reading and stuff like that reminds me so much of counter strike. I swear to god I hate the people who cry cheater FAR more than I hate the actually cheaters.

[Khan7]

*ponders whether to bring out the big guns*

*colt .45 itches in its holster*

*reaching breaking point*

[DarthGuru]

for not knowing whats going on, you sure have a lot to say. People who pre-judge... argh

[TakeshidaSo]

I would like to complain about the complaining people are doing, about a complainer, complaining about complainers.

The developers asked us to provide feedback about the X-Pack, and its being provided. Many marketing errors are being justifiably griped about, even the developers are apologizing for, and regretting them. The competitive ranking system of this game has always caused abusive behavior by some players, and is now causing the same problems in the X-Pack. People are justifiably upset with poor manners ruining that aspect of the game. The game didnt have to include that part to it, but since it does, players can play friendly games and avoid the competitive ones.

[Shiro]

I would and I will say that this discussion must calm down right now or I will have to very angry! Actually, I'm already mad. I've been preaching peace for the last three weeks constantly and I'm here to give my sermon again! Posts like this shout, "Come and flame me retards!" We don't like this kind of attitude at all and I expect regular dojo patrons not to engage in any kind of flaming.

Who are you calling newbie anyway, Khan7? Remember that you have a certain way of getting to people. Just keep that in mind.

[This message has been edited by Shiro (edited 08-24-2001).]

[Gothmog]

Here is a piece of ancient oriental wisdom:
Not having too much desire then you'll be strong.

You guys just took it too seriously.

That having said, I find this whole heated debate entirely pointless. Whether or not Steve posted that as flame, I don't find him obnoxious, for he has his point; whether or not Khan's intended to flame back, I, sort of knowning him by reading his knowledgable posts with really strong attitude, find him amusing just as ever.

Sipping another shot of Bordeaux.

[Jaguar]

I think it's time for the moderators to just close all these kinds of threads, they cause nothing but trouble. Can't we all just get along? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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Honour to Clan Shades!

[Koga No Goshi]

Jaguar,

I try only to close threads where rules have been repeatedly broken. Otherwise, you close one thread and the parties involved start two or three "why did you close that?!" threads and keep going. lol



------------------
Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.

[DarthGuru]

I say you should just close them all! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

no but seriously the admins have been very lenient, but doing a good job. Anyways this is really getting out of hand. I'm gonna have to go with Obake ( a lil less of action ) and withdraw myself from the general discussion forum at the org for awhile as well. Not gonna withdraw myself completely from the org, because most the people here are great to converse with. This general Discussion forum out of all the STW forums has gotten pretty bad. That being said... Good bye!

[Murmandamus]

Better yet, either create a rant forum where people can let off steam or even better rename off topic to general discussion and rename "General discussion" to "Shogun: TW" and allow only game specific posts to it.

[Lord Aeon]

LOL, you guys think this forum is out of hand? This ain't out of hand. The 'Emperor: Battle for Dune' forum... now THAT'S out of hand...

Seriously, this post wasn't all that bad... i don't think that the overly dramatic "i'm-gonna-run-away-until-everyone-thinks-like-i-do" solution is the best one.

Sure, this post was confrontational and partly rude, but i don't think it's the type of thing that should chase you away from the forum, especially if you really enjoy playing this game, as most all of us do. How's the forum supposed to be the type of place you want to come to when people are being censored just for having unpopular ideas?

I mean, i don't happen to agree with most of this person's points, but that doesn't mean that i don't want to read them... then again, i'm sure some of you believe that i'm part of the problem... lol

Alls i'm saying is that it's easy to overreact to what someone else has to say (i should know, e.g. the way i overreacted to what Khan7 said to me)... but it takes poise and maturity to not be adversely affected by it.

OK, end of sermon. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Satake]

Just my point of view.

You come here for a short time , and you already have an answer to everything. I have been around approx 1 year before the game was even released , you haven't got a clue what EA has put us through time and time again. Stick around , experience it too , then reconsider what u have said , for you don't know what this community has experienced so far. A term springs to mind..

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i dont trust people with 20- posts until they keep low profile and try to feel what is going on and state their well based opinion

[Kurando]

Things are in a funk over the release right now, that's all this is + even if the release was a perfect 10/10 I still would have expected that things would get a little crazy around here because of the change in the social dynamic of the community. -I don't care how mature everyone is, when guys who have been around for years start mixing with a large influx of brand-new patrons there is going to be some degree of friction, that is a given.

I even seem to remember that we talked about this and predicted that it would happen as much as a few months ago + that being the case, I don't see any reason to head for the hills. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

..

I'm totally with you Lord Aeon; even in it's present condition this section of the community is (comparitively) still doing great, (touch wood). People who are complaining and vowing to leave should go check out some Aliens vs. Preditor 2 or Gangsters 2 message boards if they want to see what a truly screwed-up group of gamers looks like + even more importantly, as Satake points out: if a patron is new to STW don't just go by a snap judgement of the present situation. Stick around awhile and I'm sure you'll realize that there are not only some quality people here, but there are also a lot of good things happening as well.

..

Jaguar;

Koga is dead right, I find that people start crying "cyber gestapo" and "freedom of speech" at the drop of a hat if mods start closing threads like this one. It is a very tough balancing act for the boys at times + similarly to Darth, I give them all the credit in the world for doing their jobs so well. -I tried it myself once + I just didn't have the bottle for it.

[EuroSan]

A Patch????? Where led me to a good patch, am still waiting for a Patch called 1.13 since DECEMBER 2000 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

So you been here for a few days with the game "sigh" most of us have been here with it For a YEAR + 2-6 months

So it isnt new to us.....

If you think there will be a patch for shogun..your dreaming---Riche posted at TW forum that they have plugged the plugg on SHOGUN(STW)



------------------
May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[EuroSan]

Ps.Since you talked about Blizzard, here is my post about how to support games. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001903.html
ds.
We havent got a REAL patch since the game came out, thats what pisses us off http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

And you say they gave us a second campaign......Hmmmmm didnt we BUY it(or will)???
"I mean if i buy a Volvo car(Do Volvo own that car when i bought it??)
No they dont and i get miles supports and alot of other stuff with my deal...."

And also if they do a marketing about the car will consume 0.8L per 10km and i found out it eats 1.2L insteed then its false marketting and sale...look up your Shogun book Page 6..... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif


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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[This message has been edited by EuroSan (edited 08-24-2001).]

[Morpheus Akechi]

One min steve how do you know nething about the shoggy community u just got here! :P

yeah just walks in and brings such a shame upon Ontario Shogunate !!! that calls for a seppuku ! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[Catiline]

I want no flames people ever. Generally this forum is fairly grownup, though not perhaps as much as normal at the moment. It 's as I have said repeatedly recently up to those of you who've been around longer to demonstrate the standards that we want. Most of you do most of the time, BUT there have been a few slips in that recently.

As to closing threads it is a last option. A case in point would be Khan7's thread on the will to fight. Closing that would have been the easy option. But we're not here to stifle your discussion.

If you want a rant forum go to the .com. Framnkly I think it's a fundamentally bad idea, and we won't have one here, not with me modding anyhow.

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Oderint dum metuant

[Minamoto Yoritomo]

Well, for the most part I don't consider the complaints that are posted on this forum to be ungrateful. I believe that most of the people in the Shogun community do believe that they are playing one of the most advanced tactical games that currently exists. They are indeed grateful to CA for creating this game for them.

That being said, many of the people who were drawn to this game are either hardcore wargamers or feudal Japan fanatics (or some combination of the two). This leads them to be very demanding about the quality of the product. Wargamers often want a level of reallism that casual gamers find absurd, and Japanese history fanatics want a game that captures the spirit of the Sengoku Jidai.

All in all, I don't believe that this forum is a bunch of whiners and complainers. They are merely vocal about their opinions, thereby providing useful feedback to the developers. Naturally, in any community there are those that complain without providing a reasonable argument supporting their complaints. If you read carefully I believe you'll find that the majority of this forum's members are quite eloquent in their arguments.

[UglyElmo]

To Steve;
Most of the veteran players have spent much time honing their skills based on the old version of STW that you are playing now. They enjoyed the way morale was used and that is why they have played this for so long. The New mongol game, has completely revamped the way morale is used, making it less of a factor in winning a multiplayer match. Also, promises were made such as, past tourney winners receiving free copies of the mongol game, (which they have not). This has led many to voice their dissappointments in the forums (myself included), but until recently, no personal attacks have been made on individuals who disagree with one another. You are young and new to the forum, so you may be forgiven your exuberance in defending this game that you obviously enjoy as much as we do. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif So there is more in common between you and the ones whom you feel are complaining too much, than meets the eye at first glance. I will be more than happy to answer any of your questions concerning the differences between the old and new game and also anything concerning game mechanics.

Conerning the patch that may be coming up: This community had been promised a new patch of the old game since before November of last year and they have been told, recently, that a patch for the old STW game will NOT be sent out. So a patch is not necessarily forthcoming for this game.

There are also a lot of new people posting on this forum, who are not used to the old standards set forth by the .org and its moderators, of which I was a moderator until about a month ago. It is very hard to moderate in a fair an friendly manner. An antagonistic tone, will in return be looked at in a harsh manner. You may state your thoughts, without adding insulting statements, and it will be looked upon less critically.

There has been a great effort to make this community a friendly and fair place to play. Much has been done to stop cheaters, spammers, and overall pains in the butts, from ruining the experience of all. There has even been established a Shogun Honor Society that has been addressing/discussing a set of standards that will make this game even better.

Constructive discussions are being held, between players and I believe Eradosan will present them to EA/CA once most people's opinions have been given. We are waiting on the Europeans, who have just received the game and who are the largest block of players of Shogun, to give us their thoughts on necessary changes to be made. I hope that this explains the reasons behind some of the forum members' anger.

Most people have stated their opinions and have gotten their anger out of their system, and I am sure that the tone of the general discussion area will turn to tactics, units, map making, etc . . in the near future. You will enjoy online play very much if you just look beyond these first few weeks of the release of the new game. Personally, I have decided to quietly handle this by not buying future EA products, and therefor there is no need for me to further post anything critical. I hope you enjoy this game as much as we have and will. Warts and all. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by UglyElmo (edited 08-24-2001).]

Patch was 1.13 was announced last year. And first they said to us they expected release in Early 2001. Then nothing- until last week, where CA announced that there will be no 1.13 at all.

Don't compare CA and EA with Blizzard, Sierra or Westwood, trust me.

Elmarko has summed up the points very well, I agree.

Tera

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[Steve Macduff]

Maybe I was a bit quick to judge, and maybe I didn't have all the information, but my opinion still stands.

The fact is Shogun will never gross as much as its westwood or blizzard competition. Not because of quaity bu simply marketing and style. How many casual gamers out there are interested in 16th century Japan?

Patching happens upon demand... but not the demand you may think. It comes when demand for the title itself increases and a steady influx of players begins, something wasn't happening until a week ago. Companies don't patch games for the people who already own them, they patch them to make them moore attractive to people who are thinking about getting it. When a company decides few people are interested in buying the game anymore, no matter how unfair it is for those who already have it, they will stop pooring money into support.

This is where massively multiplayer games really shine. The patching needs to be consistent and the customer needs to feel he is continually getting his moneys worth, or the cash flow stops from the people who already have it. This ensures the developer will continue to support the game. In the style of release that is shogun, the audience is much more focused. As a earlier reply indicated, if you are a hardcore Real Time Strategy fan, a big fan of board war games, or a big Feudal japan buff... chances are you will buy the game in it current tate and need little convincing otherwise. If you arn't, chances are you won't buy it no matter if they patch on a weekly basis.

The blame for this is understandably placed on the company backing the game, which is acceptable (EA played a role in the problems)... but in the end the company needs to stay competitive and no company will ever pour money into a game that isn't going to earn more money in the future, no matter how much money they have already made. Blizzard and Wetwood releases can count on huge money for months (or even years), therefor it is a good business decision to continually patch... they sure as hell don't do it as a favor to you.

One other thing that I hate... but thankfully have only seen a few posts that commit this. The asigning of blame for a games bad support, rushed release or overal cruddy performance on the individual developers. As if they go out and say "Hmm, lets do our best to rush the release then sell it and forget about support". Most of them enjoy making games as great as humanly possible and I am 100% confident there would be great support for all games if they could make the decision. Only problem is they take orders from the guys who give them their paychecks, so when the accountants decide to release the game, it is going to be released reado or not. If they say the suppot stops now, the support stops now. They have no control over it.

Now, it looks like EA is the big bad guy. Well, do you really believe that? They are in one of the most competitive businesses out there and they need to be efficient. They deliever on their products (Shogun would be a great game even if they had stopped supporting it 2 months after release) then when the money starts being written in red a year later, they stop supporting it. They re not to blame fully either.

So who to blame? Blame yourself. You are the one who bought this game before you were happy with it. Whats that? You are happy with it? Good, then shut the hell up and play it.

Just wanted to get that off my chest...



------------------
"Think of how stupid the avrage person is, then remember 50% of people are even dumber."

[Algesan]

"Now, it looks like EA is the big bad guy. Well, do you really believe that? They are in one of the most competitive businesses out there and they need to be efficient. They deliever on their products (Shogun would be a great game even if they had stopped supporting it 2 months after release) then when the money starts being written in red a year later, they stop supporting it. They re not to blame fully either. "

Blizzard shows that this logic is wrong. Blizzard is always late, in fact they _started_ the trend of everyone being late on releases. Yeah, it happened before, but not in the wholescale manner it does since they did. Yes, people piss and moan about Blizz when stuff it late, but they know the bottom line is that the customer will get a game with what Blizz said it would have and it will be supported. You will _not_ find official Blizzard sites and the Blizzard store listing features that have been cut out of the program less than two weeks prior to release. You will _not_ have to show up on a _fan site_ forum to find out that pieces of the software will not be included.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

do i smell another emplyee of EA around?

snif snif snif
--------------------------------

look steve, with just 6 posts under your belly i feel the need to help u with some inside info, elmo is highly respected member in here and he is right on all aspects (ofcourse he is).
the support is lacking on many aspects and for every moment "they" trying to improve it, "they" add 2 moments which show they dont. "They" are just hyping around as a bad marketing strategy, ofcourse the individual developer isnt to blame, but when i am in a project and the projectmanager sucks on his decisions i would tell him that.

after a year (or 2) of promisses, hyping and "listening" from their side, the Mongol Invasion online become an ordinary game, within reach of many young gamehoppers.

We can only hope that other games appear to fill teh gap between Mongol Invasion (if not patched right, online will die out) and the crusaders (if hyped right we wont be able to play that christmas 2002).

i am no fortuneteller but learning fron teh past is what i learned in the Shogun tutorial session...

[Catiline]

you're argument Steve is falwed. People bought this game because it is the best rTS around and the first I've found that succesfully combines RTS and TBS, even if the strategic game is limited. Not because they're interested in Japan, or are habitual rTS or board game players.THis game was reviewed and is the best, and that is not I hope me being purely biased. i for one am fundamentally none of the above. I play little RTS because frankly most of it is build and rush crap. I'd have been happy with just the demo had it been tidied up a bit and given jst a few of the options. And patching does not happen just to entice new customers though I'll admit this plays a large part. THere is a significant degree of maintaining customer loyalty, and this does exist, or rather preventing customer disloyalty. Producing a flawed game and refusing to patch it isgoing to give you a very bad name and lead to all these I'm never bying an xyz game again posts. Now STW and MI are fundamentally good games with issues. Patch 1.13 has demised, no surprises there. Hopefully MI will get it's patch. But this won't just be to drag in new customers.

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Oderint dum metuant

[TakeshidaSo]

Complainer-about-complainers,

If your happy with it, then why didnt you take your own advice? That part about shutting something up...and busying yourself in some other way. If the community makes you nauseas, you shouldnt stand too close, because of that sympathetic vomiting thing some people are susceptible to. In fact if you've got such a weak stomach; you might better keep one hand over your mouth at all times, just in case you start to spew something everyone else would consider offensive. If you cant follow your own advice then please accept mine.

[qwertyuiop]

LOL JD, he is causing an international incedent with these posts.

Sniff sniff eh...

[EA detetor enabled]
So Steve where abouts in Aurora do you live? What school you go to? Whats the principals name?
Sniff sniff sniff!

(I knew a real hottie from there that was our age, but I think she moved to the US.)

[UglyElmo]

I can see, unfortunately, this person only wants to stroke his ego and play macho man, could be his age. I assumed that he actually misunderstood the intentions of the members of this forum and wanted to participate in friendly discussions and not abusive ones. Seems I was mistaken. Remember this, people tend to create their own Hells. If you continue to berate, chastise and belittle members of this forum and the community in general, you will be treated in like manner. I gave an explanation for our previous posts and made an offer of help and in return you want to prostletize about how you are right and we are wrong and "if we don't like it then shut the hell up". I respect your opinions about the game, but I do NOT respect the way in which you choose to express them. Accordingly, I withdraw from this conversation and in the future, decline to offer any advice/help or assistance. I would further recommend that others let this thread pass slowly into the twilight, as well as any other posts which are derogatory to the members of this community.

[Steve Macduff]

First, to the guy calling my a hypocrite, I cannot even play the game right now... computer is in for an upgrade (this is a laptop).

Second, to elmo, I do not see how you can interpret what I said as a personal attack upon any members of the community. It was directed at a group of players, not the whole community, but at a particular group. Perhaps I used a bit too strong laguage, but I was trying to get a point across.

Thirdly, to the guy who thinks I am a EA staffer, I went to Dr. G W Williams (old school, if you lived around here you must know of it). Now I am trying t get readmitted after being suspended for 20 days along with 7 other buddies for smoking something... other than cigaretes... on the smoke pad out front. This happend a day before the last day of school... guess my holiday is going to be extended for a bit (or maybe I can convince the VP to let me back in so I dont get behind...)

I know everything about this damn rch crappy town, ask away.

[qwertyuiop]

I will go against Elmo and post just to say:
What kind of fool gets busted smoking a fatty? Is the smoke 'pad' on the front steps or somthing? Must have been pretty bloody heat for someone let alone 9 people to have actually gotten caught.

Well maybe if you guys were so red that six became physicly impossible.

20 days, hahaha, I remember some moron getting caught last year and only getting like 3 days.

Must be a lot stricter down there in EA land... Jokes.

[Steve Macduff]

Actually it was a pipe and I am damn tempted to say it was worth it... heh heh. The smok pad it in front of school by the entrance / exit to staff paking lot, the goddamn VP was driving out and she (i swear to god she is under 4 feet tall) gets out of here Lil' Tykes Racing Car and busts us all huddled together.

In retrospect it was pretty stupid... I mean... even teachers can figure out what a bunch of teenage guys might be doing huddled so close together we were gettin high off eachothers smoke...

Actually, one kid only got 5 days because it was sorta hs first offense. Most of us had had our low-level suspension together on a day out to wonderland (it was part of the Band because they came in first in a competition or something... someone we knew was in the band and kinda smuggled us aboard) where we lit up behind the washrooms at the entrance to the water area, heh heh.

Wow, that was like 2 years ago. Time flies when you're high!

[UglyElmo]

I waited til I was in college before "partaking." Had a little one-hit, for emergencies and had my "black box" for parties. It has a blower on it! woohoo Coming from Kentucky, I had many friends who had access to anything you wanted. Even Moonshine. ***PASSING JUG AROUND LOBBY*** Of course, now I am an old man, husband and father of two, and cannot admit to having done any of this in my youth so Shhhhhh! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif PS. I never got caught, because a couple of my professors smoked as well. You need to find out which teachers do and invite them out for a smoke. LOL

[Steve Macduff]

Whoa, is this the same guy who just gave me a lecture about my rudeness in posts? Who said, and I quote: "Accordingly, I withdraw from this conversation and in the future, decline to offer any advice/help or assistance. "

=P

Anyways, I really should stop lighting up. I got pretty bad brochial athsma (no idea how to spell either of those 2 words) and doc came right out and said if I don't quit smokin that sh.it I will dye of lung disease before I hit 40... not to mention get kicked outa the house... but they will probably do that anyways when they see my grades next semester at school (how am I supposed to pass a course that I miss the first 1/3 of?).

Oh well, now I am really off topic... so... like I was saying... all you guys suck and smell bad or something to that effect (especially elmo, the easily offended facist who smokes up in his spare time... or at least used to http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif) =p.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i can tell you that elmo is a damn fine guy, it seems he like to face others based on respect. my Khan faced many ugly dickheads in his life and wont retreat for any of them... although he can be very nice as well.

[evilc]

I come back after a week, and I see this, oh well, quite funny I suppose http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[UglyElmo]

Of course I smell! I am the leader of the Smelly ashi army, ask anyone. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I said I would withdraw from the conversation about the game and no longer give you advice on it, but it seems that you needed some advice on how "not to get caught"! LOL Reminds of a skit on Monty Python's Flying Circus called "How not to be seen."

[qwertyuiop]

Yeah, plenty of good tips in that one.

[Catiline]

Lads this discussion is completely inappropriate for GD, and I'm not going to bother to move this thread to OT, it's more trouble than it's worth. If you want to discuss the pros and cons of your hobbies do it there. As to the flames they've continued after you were warned. I didn't want to lcose this but I'm going to. THat makes me sorry.

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Oderint dum metuant