Intolerable BUG!!!

[ishikawa2]

OK, I (Mori) am attacking Takeda in Musashi.
I bring about 1800 good troops, he has over 2500. I run him off the board, re-group (on his side of the river) and blow away his reinforcements as they appear (from all points of the compass). Late, late in the battle (using the timer) I see ONE SOLITARY SPRITE way off on the horizon... on my original side of the river... I zoom in with the camera. OK, we have "54 Arqebusiers Running Away" represented by this ONE SOLITARY SPRITE ... Oh, did I happen to mention that HE IS STANDING **IN** THE FRIGGING RIVER!!???!!
AND OH YEAH ... HE'S IN THE RED ZONE, TOO!!!
I screw around grouping and shuffling to get somebody into the red zone to take a swing at him... it happens that the only guys who I can get there are another group of ARQs.
They whittle him down to about 42 before the timer goes off... and I LOSE the battle.

Before the timer went off, I did a thorough aerial tour of the battlefield and there were no other enemy troops on the map (unless hidden deep in the woods on my original side of the river). I took over 1800 heads, losing a little over 400... and I LOSE???!!!???

Well, as an afterthought, it may be understandable since the one visible enemy trooper was, after all, walking on water!!!
(I took a couple of screen shots, but I don't have a way to post them at the moment.)

This goes way, way, beyond the aggravation of the current reinforcement scheme. This is a completely indefensible BUG!
He's walking on water; he's in the red zone; and he's routing ... but because he EXISTS ... I "LOSE". This stinks.

[This message has been edited by ishikawa2 (edited 08-25-2001).]

[Khan7]

OK buddy, slow down. Computers are not perfect, software is not perfect, I don't think this has ever happened to anyone else, and if it did they obviously realized the truth of the above two statements. And plus it's just an SP campaign, really IMHO nothing to get excited about. Even if it had been an online comp, I wouldn't be concerned unless it were like the grand finals of some tournament.

For real, I don't understand why you're upset.

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Khan7

[TakeshidaSo]

For real, you dont?

[barocca]

most annoying,
fight a pitched battle, survive endless reinforcements,
and then lose because a unit of arquey's do a reasonable impersonation of JC,

Losing the battle is understandable if they are indeed cousins of JC, but annoying none the less,
and how do I get my hands on arqueys that don't need bridges to cross rivers?
a distinct tactical advantage that!

one bright side though,
you now have 1800 less takeda to worry about, yes?


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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)

[Lord Aeon]

LOL, that's terrible, but it's more of an isolated incident than a full-out bug...

I once had a situation where i was playing as Uesegi clan, and lost Musashi to the Hojo. My army sallies the next turn, and i actually retake the territory!

Yet, for some reason, while my armies still hold Musashi, the ownership of the province still remained with the Hojo... My army is there, i can click to see which buildings have been built... No Hojo clan armies are in the province... yet i cannot train units, and i didn't get any income from the province...

This lasted for a couple of turns (and i wish i hadn't waited that long, because it killed the autosave at the end of the year) and no change... dangit... had to restart the game.

But it was a glitch, not a bug. The term "bug" connotes a consistent program failure. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-25-2001).]

[Khan7]

Lord Aeon put it best. Thanx :-)

[ishikawa2]

Hmmmmm... I see a number of things here.
Barocca/Lord Aeon -- I thank you for your condolences and sympathy. (And thanks also to Lord Aeon for recognizing the innate humor of the thing.) Frankly, it felt good to let off a little steam in the post. Yes, Barocca, in the next turn I did make them pay for their trickery, and yes... I beleive their 1800 troopers were sorely missed by the Taisho. I think that unit of ARQs was sandwiched between a YS and an NC, both gold shield and a couple of swords. (Most gratifying.)

Khan7 -- Shame, shame !!
The absolute arrogance of your "just an SP campaign" is simply breathtaking. I have perhaps 20-30 hours of playing time invested in that campaign... and to "lose" a key battle with a bug like this was aggravating beyond belief to me. (Yeah, yeah, it's only maybe a half-hour of battle and a bit of strategy map fiddling, to back up to a saved game and give it another go, but I chose to simply forge ahead.) I personally don't give a rat's patoot about "online comps". I play only on-line friendlies (and few of those), and may indeed never play a "comp". That's just a personal preference, and I don't think it leads me to look down on those who do. It would be refreshing to feel the same consideration flowing in the other direction. We do tend to have two rather distinct groups here, and it would be nice if we could co-exist better.

Yes, I certainly understand that computers and software are not perfect. I have been designing building computers from the days where the best I had was 16 bits on a chip... not "16M"... not even "16K"... that's just 16 bits. I've lost count of the years of computer programming experience I've had with a fairly large number of programming languages, and I've certainly created my own share of bugs along the way, so I really do understand the principle.

Lord Aeon -- Please do permit me to label this a "bug". It is NOT a mere one-time glitch. On Day 1 of the WE release, in my first WE campaign, I also reported what might have been the first posted observation of the new reinforcement behavior. In a very similar situation, an enemy unit was somehow "stuck" on a bit of shoreline with all personnel "stacked" onto a single visible sprite.

I fear that the phenomenon of AI units getting "stuck" on terrain is indeed a "bug".

(The walk on water bit was indeed new, and I thought the assembly here might get a chuckle out of it... I still hope to get the little bugger posted... maybe I can use it in a sig.)

cheers to all.

Edit: and it's not just me... see http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001760.html

[This message has been edited by ishikawa2 (edited 08-25-2001).]

[Tora]

Had something similar before.
After hammering a Takeda army I pursued a CA unit all round Ise with only infantry.
Just before the time limit I cornered them near my original starting point and annihilated them. Or so I thought.
One enterprising chap - and his horse - had decided to take up tap dancing in a wood at the other end of the map.Just as my exhausted infantry homed in upon the wildly gyrating figure - and his horse - the timer expired so it was back to the drawing board.
And yes, it's just as much of a bummer to have this happen in SP as MP.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Your right - this is bloody annoying - and its not an isolated incident. As you noted (and linked) in your post - its happened more than once to me. I have never seen a unit as a single sprite - but I have seen units stuck in the darndest places.

Hopefully - it will be addressed in the patch.

As for Kahn7 and his comments - learn to do what the rest of us have - realize that he is a very..... opinionated... individual who means well, but lacks tact in conveying his opinions. Alot of us think the SP campaign is a major reason to buy the game. Now if I can just get the ppl I need for the multiplayer campaign game setup that I need! LOL.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Well it happened in my SP game also, in Musashi also. Got one AI reinforcement sprite stuck in the water near my side (with the message 8 ashiguru running away). So i lost when time expired. Don't know if you call it a glitch or a bug, but it is a problem.

[Krasturak]

Turn off timer.

Enjoy game more.

[Khan7]

Well, perhaps I should clarify a couple things. First of all, I personally have gotten and continue to get a great amount of enjoyment out of the SP Campaigns. I do however think of them as "just SP Campaigns" because they are, well, just little excercises in which you use your superior analytical and logic skills to defeat an opponent that has no emotions and will not lord it over you if you lose. There is a lot of fun along the way, but this is the way I view it. I was not objecting to your enjoyment of Campaign games, or the fact that you don't put much stock in Competitive online games, as neither do I ("play WITH honor, not FOR honor).

What I did object to was your attitude coming in here like "INTOLERABLE BUG" "INDEFENSIBLE SCREWUP" as if you're saying "HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY HAVE HAPPENED?? THE MAKERS OF THE GAME MUST HANG!!!" (I'm sure you didn't mean to imply this, but that's what it sounded like). You come in here yelling and fuming and throwing a fit to draw attention to your little problem which you want us to think is the most important thing that must be fixed about the game (again, I'm sure this isn't what you MEANT to imply, but it sure as hell sounded like it). So that sums up what I object to.

Separately, what I can't understand is how one gets to be so emotionally invested in such a thing. I suppose that's just because of the particular attitude I have come to take towards games vs. AI. If something like that happened to me I can honestly say I would laugh my a** off. I wish the Jesus men would visit my games!!

And just for the record I would have to agree that the walking on water can best be defined as a glitch; and that problems with running out of time on the attack due to AI sneakiness would be a questionable game feature more than anything; I personally don't feel any of this fully deserves the title of bug.

But if you feel that way, go ahead, I have no problem with that. I only objected to the things mentioned above.

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Khan7

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Ok... I am forced to ask this.... Kahn7 - did you ever play games before multiplayer was available? The reason I ask is that alot of gamers buy a game regardless of whether or not it has a multiplayer aspect to it. The thief series is a perfect example. And while you may not feel that the issue above is intolerable - for those of us who laid down between 15 and 40 bucks for this game and are concerned with the Single Player portion primarily, the issue is one that can and has taken the fun right out of the game - at least for a short few moments.

Yes - the AI is not as adaptable or cunning or capable as a human opponent. Yet some computer AI can and often is very well designed and challenging. Again - your right, the AI will not needle you over its victory. But then again, I do not play online to poke fun at those I beat, nor do I wish to be taunted if I lose.

The real question is this - if Shogun WE/MI did not have a multiplayer capability - would you have purchased it? Some would say no. Others, like myself, would say yes. And that is why some issues, like this one, are more important to some than to others. The person who created this thread gave his OPINION! Your initial response was one of "Your opinion is flawed", and to be honest, quite a few of your posts are in the same direction. While the view may be flawed in YOUR OPINION, you need to respect the rights of ppl to have one that differs from you. As I have posted to you before - its not so much what you say, as how you say it. I respect your view, and in fact understand it. I do not agree, but will not post that your wrong because you and I differ. Its not my place to dictate, and I have no doubt that you do not intend to be dogmatic either. It just comes across that way. As a person who is active in a few communities, I can honestly say that if you give respect, you will garner it.

You have proven that you have the intellect to provide valuable input. Now work on putting that input into a manner that others can accept and consider without making them have "gut reactions" to the wording.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Khan7]

FYI: Yes, I would've bought the game if it hadn't had a multiplayer option. It's a great game even if you can't get a competent opponent. I probably would've lost interest much faster, and had a much lower opinion of it, but I would've still bought it and played it alot. Most of my play up to this point has been SP, though I have at times logged a good deal of MP.

And yes, he came in here stating his OPINION, and I didn't have a problem with that, it was just that THE WAY HE SAID IT produced a gut reaction in me. Please do read my post right above this. I could've said it more tactfully, yes, but my core objections were no less valid than the objections you took to my post. And overall I don't believe I particularly stepped out of line in this case anyway.

I suppose I probably should though, given my reputation, be extra careful with what I say for a while. I will keep this in mind.

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Khan7

[ishikawa2]

BTW, I had oddball enemy units "stick" on terrain features twice more today. One was odd in that it looked like it might duplicate the features of the one which prompted my original tirade since it was on a beach in the red zone. BUT... when the timer ran out, the invisible umpire declared me the victor even though this phantom unit was still dithering. Anybody know why this could be different from the first situation?

BTW, Khan7... I hold no grudge here. I really do realize that this is just a game. However, I did feel the need to vent about something which was/is a significant irritant to me.

With respect to the "turn off the timer" suggestion above... I prefer to use the timer for reasons I have elaborated in other posts. In this case, the suggestion seems bizarre indeed since absolutely NOTHING would ever change hour after hour after hour. The enemy is sitting in a far corner of the red zone and he won't/can't move, and it's bloody difficult to deal with that. So turning off the timer would NOT be a viable option.

My opinion remains that it is a bug, and one which can have serious effects on the enjoyment of the game. If my fulminating gets the problem noticed and perhaps on track for a correction, I would be gratified.

cheers.