First of all...

[ShadowBlood]

First of all, hello everyone, new and old, newbie and veteran warlords.
Please read my words and think a bit about this masterpiece of a game that is Shogun.

First of all, Shogun is about learning and improving, that's what makes it so damn addictive. You can always try new tactics, new army entries, new maps, new ways to beat your enemies.
It´s not a straightforward game like most RTS games [they do really suck for it is only building and making it unit to unit fighting with no concern for reality. Yes i'm talking about C&C and clones alike. ], you must learn [it's a hard way] to master your MEN [they behave like that] to achieve victory.
It took me nearly a year of non-regular play on multi to really understand how it all works. Lots of games i've lost but watched and watched and noted mentally what more wise generals did. How they deployed, how they maneuvered, etc.

How come you even put morale at stake as it is in the Xpack !?

It turns the game into 'to the death fight!.
The most glorious victory comes not with bloodshed but with the lack of it.

Armies of old always tried to strike the heart of the opponent one way or the other.
[ the first time romans faced celts just left the field in a gigantic disarray just because the sight of naked, warpainted warriors, howling like devils and striking hard their shields with their blades was to much. ]

If one gets tired of playing just because one can't overcome morale [ read routing ] problems then he's not meant to play shogun really. There's lot of other games just as fun.

Rushes of monks are as easy to beat as they are plain stupid, and that's why many ppl wanted the new morale system. It gives them a way to:
1st. Rush stormtroops on you without any fear of your firewall and spear square
2nd. There's no point choosing a balanced army, just pick whatever does most damage.

One last word [boss is yelling now hehe]
if you can't take the heat of a fast furious battle where one "click" is the difference between returning home or not at all, then stay out of it and keep idiot concerns to yourselves.

Fight until you win.
Fight until you master.
Fight until there's no need for good men to die.
And another thing. Forget that Honour system even exists and attack a lot even when u defend, there's the only way to improve your skills.

[ personal thanks to all that don't know me but indirectly helped me improve. ]

"You can't expect to face him and survive!"

[Magyar Khan]

what u mean? u mean u liekd the old morale or the new morale?

[ShadowBlood]

1st version of STW works just fine apart for some problems we all now. Morale was very well simulated, just don't know why they changed it. It confers STW it's near to reality feeling i think.
I just hope this new morale system ain't another play from EA to sell more (!) or community will be swarmed with C&C lovers.


"You can't expect to face him and survive!"

[Lord Aeon]

Wow. I don't know myself what the devs had in mind, but i think that our collective selective memory (watch out now! rhyming!) seems to block out that little bit about all of us asking for the morale to be increased in response to the monk/gun rush and the cascade rout.

Not to mention that the new system seems to only be in place in the MI, not in Sengoku battles, which suggests that it was done for the purposes of balancing Japanese and Mongol units.

But this is how things usually happen when changes are asked for in a game. When the changes come, the consensus is:
a) Things were changed too much,
b) Things weren't changed enough, or
c) Things shouldn't have been changed at all.

I don't know why it still surprises me when i see yet another thread about how "only crappy players like the new morale, since now it's C&C, blah, blah, blah", ad nauseum.

LOL, oh well. It'll all be changed soon, so i believe that if we all keep our panties from twisting, the wait won't be so bad. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Errmmm.... no offense to anyone. Really. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-27-2001).]

[ShadowBlood]

Sorry for losing myself hehe

Of course old morale system was the best.
New one just spoils the game itself.

[back to the galley's]

[ShadowBlood]

fine reply Lord Aeon, but if my mind doesn't fail me what was requested was that developers would be so kind as to balance monks sheer destructive power.
Doesn't that mean...erm...offensive/defensive statistics or whatever ?

Yeah, i think we're still all hot blooded from the change to XPack.

Meanwhile
May the gods save us from the wrath of the steppe's riders.

[Whitey]

when my Ashigru thought they felt like an early night and legged it I cursed the farmers cowardice, not the developers idiocy

the first time I see Yari Samurai march against skirmishers, loose three quarters of their strength, let out a war cry and charge for the honour of their fallen comrades I think of their heroic bravery against the odds, when it happens ten times in a row I quit the game, go to the Sword Dojo and bite peoples heads off (if they wish to show them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif)

We made a mistake asking for a change, I'm sorry - I accept I was wrong.

[Puzz3D]

Yes I think CA/DT just responded to the posts in the forums complaining about units running away, and now they've thrown the cat out with the bath water. All people who didn't like it had to do was play at higher koku. That's how you go up the morale scale. The dramatic increase in morale is surprising. Now we are squashed up into the high end of the scale with the morale system saturating at about honor=4, and we can't go down more than a couple of honor points.

The 3D battle environment is wonderful, and a true achievement, but the fatigue and morale systems are also important in making the gameplay truely remarkable. It's morale that makes battle formations and fighting as a coordinated group important.

Without morale, it's a match-up-the-units game with a mixed army or just get-the-best-unit-and-charge with a non-mixed army. You can already see the rush tactics developing in WE/MI.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Jackson]

When I first started playing the Jap vs. Jap SP campaign I used my old frontal assault strategies and experienced the “fight-to-the-last-man” problem. In battles that should have been 4 to 1 in my favor, I was barely over 1 to 1. Then it dawned on me. This is a whole new ballgame now.

Flanking with cavalry is more important than ever. Monks are now second fiddle to cavalry. Where I used to bring two or three units of yari cav to the battle, I’m now bringing five or six.

The cheap building prices also make Palaces and their morale bonuses that much more important.

I don’t think the new morale levels are that big of a deal in JvJ SP. Perhaps MP is different, but as it stands now, I don’t think the morale should be changed. I, for one, got sick of seeing my enemies turn tail and run all the time. Now when they turn tail, I’ve got cavalry crashing into their sides, and am getting 8 to 1 kill ratios.

[ShadowBlood]

That's just ok what u just posted Jackson but mind this:

- If you could make enemies run more than it happened to your men is because you learned Shogun properly, assuming you play veterans of course.

- Now just any new player can lay waste to the battlefield without just even understanding a bit of tactical warfare.
He just don't mind choosing an army that works, just one who kills most fast.

As Puzz3D put:
" Without morale, it's a match-up-the-units game with a mixed army or just get-the-best-unit-and-charge with a non-mixed army."

Rush tactics are used still with the old set but don't work more than they do. Only one green general can be surprised by them.

But with units fighting almost to the last man, and read Honour 2 grade.

I can make my men fight to the last with the old set, but not many times. Conditions must be right and all army well timed etc.

Now u just send one unit and it will kill until it's killed.
I think it has no skill on it.

Meanwhile it's just thoughts, not complaints mind though.

Just feel it was more a chalenge than it is now.
Most europeans are still waiting to get their hands on the XPack.
I did get it through "freeware enterprises", just while it doesn't come out.
I'm very happy with all the work developers did, but there's the reverse too.

We all must 'help them' to improve.

Last word,
Hope to face you in the field.

"You can't expect to face him and survive!"

[TakeshidaSo]

Yuuki's post made me wonder if CA\DT might have adjusted fatigue as well as morale? Is there a Hidden Mongol modifier that requires a large (8-12pts) morale increase? Are there different morale tables for the SP and MP games? Are morale adjustments being added by increases, or are they being multiplied? If "ruined" is too strong a word, why was it necessary to raise morale by the difference between YA and WM (12pts)?

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Shadowblood , i believe that Jackson is right concerning Sengoku period SP campaign. The morale seems fine, i see whole armies routing, like i also see fight to the last man battles depending on the situation (frontal assault, rear or flank attack, isolated units, unit moral type, fatigue etc...). It seems fine to me and i am not a newbie SP wise.

I understand that there is a problem with MP games moral wise for a lot of veterans that are testing and tweaking things right now.