SP Campaigns: East vs. West

[ishikawa2]

In the original STW, much time was spent here and elsewhere discussing how the "Eastern" clans (Hojo, Uesugi) were "richer" and the "Western" clans like Shimazu, Mori were "poor". It has been interesting trying the various new combinations of starting dates and clan selection.

I haven't seen anyone else mention it, so I thought I would just throw it out as a general observation: The balance seems to have shifted dramatically due to a side effect of changing costs/time to build infrastructure.

I have noticed that starting a campaign as Shimazu can result in being the richest clan is Japan in short order. You can build an enormous economic powerhouse by accepting the Portugese as soon as possible, ahead of the other clans. Since they are more affordable, if you build ports and Portugese trading posts in EVERY province, it can result in HUGE annual budgets of koku by the time Shimazu advances to the Owari-Mino area.
I'm playing a campaign where I am the "Green Horde" about to roll into the Hojo/Uesugi home areas and I am clearly more than a match for them both in numbers and troop quality.

The balance seems to have shifted quite a bit. You have to weather the discontent of the Christian vs. Buddhist stuff, but there seem to be huge economic advantages in doing so.

[Gothmog]

Definitely, with trading post, port (you need that for the trading post anyway)and church (after the cathedral) , even a meager province can collect 500 koku. Not to mention you don't have to worry about poor harvest at all.

Damn, I hate to see christianlity prevail in the ancient Japan! Give the poor fanatic monks some chance, will ya?

[Algesan]

Actually, you don't even need the trading posts. I've been the richest clan twice now with Shimazu (1530/1580) without becoming Christian and only using ports for strategic movement (4/5 ports). All this with just Kyushu, the "Ronin" island and advancing over the Mori/Takeda areas. I went Christian in 1580, but only after the Dutch showed up. Building Dutch and Portugese trading posts in each province _really_ pumped my economy and the Cathedral didn't hurt any at all. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

One problem with the non "classic" campaigns is that all the eastern clans start out surrounded by Ronin and in each other's laps, while Shimazu gets relatively free expansion as long as you have a Shinobi factory running. In my one "classic" campaign I started (Normal diff) right after I got MI, as Uesigi, I quickly hit richest clan with my five core provinces of Mutsu, Dewa, Echigo, Sado and Noto and haven't lost it yet.

[Vanya]

Takeda in 1530 campaign is a lot of fun... you surrounded by enemy clans... its a rat race indeed!

[ishikawa2]

Vanya -- Yep, I agree that Takeda was fun in the newly available scenarios. You say "rat race", I might have said "dogfight". I didn't notice large swings in "balance" between clans (STW vs. WE) when playing with Takeda/Hojo/Uesugi. However, to me the difference in "balance" with Shimazu was quite noticable, so I thought I'd mention it here.

Algesan -- I forget what "year" it is in that "early start" campaign of mine, but the Dutch haven't even shown up yet. I am assuming that if the game is still going on when they arrive, those Southern/Western Shimazu provinces of mine will get the first chance to build Dutch trading posts and I'll get yet another economic boost.

Another interesting twist that helps Shimazu is the new "retraining" rules. Originally, Shimazu has to advance to Nagato before he can build an armory and it took quite a while to build up to gold shield and 3 sword upgrades. Now I can build "Swordmiths" in the ORIGINAL territories and they can just pick up their gold shields (FOR FREE!!) as they march through Nagato on the way out.
I find that if I have troops waiting in Nagato when I run out of koku in summer or autumn, I can queue them up for training at the armory and they don't cost me anything!

As I said, I find that it's an interesting twist.

cheers.

[Vanya]

Dutch take a LOOOOOOOONG time in showing up in the Early campaign, thus making the papist yoke more appealing...

[Hosakawa Tito]

I have to agree that Shimazu in the 1530 campaign is the easiest,with no rival clan on your borders you can kick the ronin around for several years and expand your territory quickly.The most challenging one has to be Hojo.You will be fighting either Takeda or Uesugi right off the bat as you are surrounded by both.I tried a Takeda campaign and elected to attack Uesugi in Musashi the first season,along with Hojo who had the same idea.Before I could get to the bridge Hojo attacked me first,the dog.We ended up beating each other up,and then Uesugi marched over the bridge and finished us both off.Game over after the first season LOL.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[Whitey]

the papist yoke is always appealing http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

so far from what i've played - Takeda is the most 'fun' but take away that western starting province and its even more interesting 'dog-fight' is definatly the word.

Hojo has a difficult start, but they do have rivers so I'm not complaining there

you do have to play on expert though for the full force.

[Vanya]

As Takeda, my first move was to bribe the ronins in Shinano. With that province, I found safety, as I eventually lost Kai to the conspiring Uesugi and Imagawa pig-dogs. But by then, I had the 'fertile crescent' firmly in my grip: Echigo, Shinano, Mushashi!

The openning bribery gambit paid off huge as the ronin garrison helped me hold my new lands and I didn't have to waste my men taking the province by force, thus allowing them to march on to take Echigo from the 2 yari pigs there.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Funny thing is, the loss of Kai precipitated my final victory! Many revolts followed, thus giving me about 4000 troops! Before I was kinda stuck, but now, I was able to rampage across the entire map with my new-found horde! Sometimes it pays to lose...

(Of course, I moved in a dozen honor-6 shinobi to Kai, burnt down all my own buildings and abandoned Kai when the allied enemies came a-knockin'... but heck! They got what they deserved!)




[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 08-28-2001).]

[Algesan]

Quote Originally posted by Hosakawa Tito:
I have to agree that Shimazu in the 1530 campaign is the easiest,with no rival clan on your borders you can kick the ronin around for several years and expand your territory quickly.The most challenging one has to be Hojo.You will be fighting either Takeda or Uesugi right off the bat as you are surrounded by both.I tried a Takeda campaign and elected to attack Uesugi in Musashi the first season,along with Hojo who had the same idea.Before I could get to the bridge Hojo attacked me first,the dog.We ended up beating each other up,and then Uesugi marched over the bridge and finished us both off.Game over after the first season LOL.

[/QUOTE]


ROFL. Next time bow out and let them kill each other, then come after the remnants next season. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Originally posted by Vanya:
As Takeda, my first move was to bribe the ronins in Shinano. With that province, I found safety, as I eventually lost Kai to the conspiring Uesugi and Imagawa pig-dogs. But by then, I had the 'fertile crescent' firmly in my grip: Echigo, Shinano, Mushashi!

The openning bribery gambit paid off huge as the ronin garrison helped me hold my new lands and I didn't have to waste my men taking the province by force, thus allowing them to march on to take Echigo from the 2 yari pigs there.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Funny thing is, the loss of Kai precipitated my final victory! Many revolts followed, thus giving me about 4000 troops! Before I was kinda stuck, but now, I was able to rampage across the entire map with my new-found horde! Sometimes it pays to lose...

(Of course, I moved in a dozen honor-6 shinobi to Kai, burnt down all my own buildings and abandoned Kai when the allied enemies came a-knockin'... but heck! They got what they deserved!)


YES VANYA, you are the man!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif THE SENGOKU PERIOD CAMPAIGN REALLY OFFERS US THE POSSIBILITY OF USING ALL KIND OF STRATEGY, MUCH MORE CLOSE TO SUN TZU THAN THE ORIGINAL GAME.

IMAGINE IF WE COULD PLAY THIS CAMPAIGN ON_LINE http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif