morale vote

[hach]

The replies on this thread will be collated and added onto my patch thread'but for simplicity i have kept seperate.I expect mostly North Americans to reply at first and the Europeans to reply in the coming weeks.I cannot even vote yet as i have yet to play the game.Also please don't vote if under the age of 18!(just kidding)

I want a vote on the morale issue.
Please post just a single letter answer and not long saga as this can be posted in the morale threads.

Do you

(A)Prefer the old Morale of STW in it's entirety and want the new game to have the morale values of the original game.

(B)Prefer the new morale values and want the new game morale values left untouched.

(c)Want neither'but some sort of happy medium between the 2.

Hach

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The greatest thrill in life is not to Kill' but to let live!

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Sorry hach - have to do it:

D) Leave it alone as its mod-able by design.

------------------
BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[QuietWolf]

C

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In Reality ...

[hach]

In that case BSM_Skkzarg I'll put you down as a B.

Hach

[KukriKhan]

Not nearly as experienced as you guys, but it seems OK to me the way it is. So:

B

[monkeydan]

B

[Murmandamus]

Having units fight for longer allows my tactics to be played out.

B

[ishikawa2]

"C"

(Just "dial it back a notch", but not all the way to the original.)

[Erado San]

Same as Ishikawa. Just ease up on the new morale stats a little.

C

[Nelson]

B

[DragonCat]

Would have said C until I got totally routed last night by a very able player.

B is my vote.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Pachinko]

I'm with you...BSM

D

[hach]

Once again pachinko i'll put you down as B as if you READ IT CAREFULLY you'll see it means the same as your option D.

Hach

[Alastair]

A

[VoodooChild]

B

[Magyar Khan]

nice to see many new names in here i would suggest this
-----------------------
use an ingame option/button/toggle as we have in shogun now

1) OLD MORALE (AS IN SHOGUN)
2) NEW MORALE (AS IN WE/MI)

and perhaps

3) BETWEEN OLD AND NEW

and delete the option MORALE OFF since playing with new morale (and high koku) plays almost the same as morale off.
----------------------------------------
i certainly hope that many online players will notice this topic, a wrong decission is easily made on this.

for what i have seen happening in the -online- games that teh effect and importancy is highly reduced with the new system and building a strong HTH-army works best. In teh old system u were able to win even if your army was not strongest. In the new system u just have to be sure u have good units according to the rock scissors papers thing.

perhaps i must eventually accept that the group of arcade gamers is bigger then the group of wargamers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif(

[TakeshidaSo]

Everyone who has the right, or opportunity to vote, doesnt always understand what he's voting for. Every election allows a period of campaigning, so that the most logical policies, and most believable people are given a chance to win over the masses. A vote, without supporting reason and fair debate, is a mindless vote. Obviously, some people want to continue with the discussion, so it is too early to vote. Therefore, I abstain.

[This message has been edited by TakeshidaSo (edited 08-23-2001).]

[Shiro]

B

[Lord Aeon]

B

[Nelson]

My wargaming credentials are impeccable.

The current state of MI/WE is NOT arcade.

My grognard vote remains a firm B.

Options are good things though.

[DarthGuru]

It would be cool if they could do something as Magy stated, but if not.. I vote on C

[TakeshidaSo]

I live in America so I well know that people who have a great democracy and free elections can still see; ballot boxes stuffed or stolen, ballots fondled or mutilated, and voters attempting to vote as many times as they can. You can see from activity here that people will vote for two candidates, or write in votes expecting you to interpret them, AND YOU WILL. Especially troubling is the premature attempt at projecting a winner, or announcing a winner before the polling places have even closed. You also have added a new twist by expecting that people who change their minds, maybe from finally thinking about it, will actually correct the vote of their initial impressions. This is all on top of a lack of any time to campaign. I continue to abstain.

Nelson, I normally would never question the credentials of anyone who didnt try to impress me with them. But since you have, I wonder how impeccable they could really be if they are all you rely upon? I havent noticed any thoughful commentary from you in support of MI's morale system, or against STW's. I dont recognize you as someone who regularly played online, although I admit that doesnt really mean you havent, or that you dont have any thoughtful commentary to offer. By the way are sure your vote hasnt been counted twice now? I'm not.

[This message has been edited by TakeshidaSo (edited 08-24-2001).]

my gawd are you insane you lot ?????
why don't you go play AOE or Starcraft then?


it's A, slightly increased perhaps but not as much as midway between before and now


------------------
I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[RageFury]

Gotta agree with Magy and Jaydee on this one...

New game is definitely one hundred percent rock papoer scissors thing...dont match unit unit and u dead...it sux..havin honour 3 nagi cav...attacked on three fronts and fighting till last man? i dont think so somehow..lol

id vote A or C not too sure yet..at the moment i dont even bother playing MI..its so damned borin with this new morale.


Now everyone has a right to an opinion but this is no longer shogun..it is another AOE clone in battle...it sux

U can argue that its mor true to samurai behavious if u like but it no longer takes any skill and weaker armies no longer beat stronger no matter wot situation is.


-Fury

[This message has been edited by RageFury (edited 08-24-2001).]

[MagyarKhans Cham]

my Khan get the feeling that all employees of CA EA are ordered to vote in here... just look at some of those names...

perhaps my khan should order all dominions to post as well...

[A Nerd]

I like the morale...wouldn't hange a thing...

[DarthGuru]

Magy, either that or their are a lot of newbies that don't know the difference

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

"my gawd are you insane you lot ?????
why don't you go play AOE or Starcraft then?"

"my Khan get the feeling that all employees of CA EA are ordered to vote in here... just look at some of those names... "

"Magy, either that or their are a lot of newbies that don't know the difference"

A lot of not to subtle arm-twisting going on here, HEHEHEHEHEHEHE.
Silence you are EA sell-outs!
Silence you are newbies that don't know anything, you don't know what you are talking about!
If you disagree with my opinion you must be crazy (Let's send you off to a siberean re-education camp or a least go away)!

Politics are so dirty http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


My vote "C"

But i hope the voting booth will stay open for a while, to give a chance to our European mates to play a bit and then vote.

[Dark Phoenix]

C

and keeping it moddable.

------------------
DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

"DP is correct" - Shiro

[Rath]

A or C....but preferably an option

[Sword_Monkey]

Now, I'm just a relative newbie to this game, but my vote is for B) Leave it as is in WE.

One, I think the "problem" is largely a multi-player one.
Two, I think the "problem" is largely based on resistance to the new system. It's a new twist to the older game which changes the battlefield tactics needed. Since the change in morale is due to the change in unit selection, if you really hate it there is still the original game for the "old timers" who really care about the difference. No one is forcing you to buy and play the new expansion (albeit, EA would certainly like to find a way).
Three, although I get the feeling this point is frowned upon by the majority of the forum, it _is_ more newbie friendly. The game is still by far the most deep, most subtle RTS style game I've played - the new morale system does not change that (as the frequently routing troops in my single player campaign (both mine and the enemy's)when I do something right/wrong attest to.

[Warmaker]

B.

Spending resources to get better disciplined troops is a plus! An experienced, high honor, disciplined unit is now much, much more valuable now...

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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

[MagyarKhans Cham]

as stated everywhere teh morale in MI is most friendly for those who like to buy some troops and storm at the enemy after which they have a fair change of winning without even knowing what the hell is going on.

ofcourse it is a part of the oldtimers job to finish them off as well but after a month when most of the new guys are gone we (teh devoted ones, perhaps just 200 in total) are stuck with a stupid setting.

Thats why an option button is most sensible

i vote for D) make it optional (perhaps even with a slidebar)

MORALE
no -------------------------- old shogun

Quote Originally posted by Nelson:
My wargaming credentials are impeccable.

The current state of MI/WE is NOT arcade.

My grognard vote remains a firm B.

Options are good things though.[/QUOTE]

sorry my friend but i have to vote for this to be one of the funniest posts in a long time... actually, it's not even funny since we are trying to solve a problem here, never mind...

however, a 'grognard wargamer' who finds nonexistent morale in WLE perfectly fine is a very interesting occurence indeed. i am very much curious to see those credentials- i can imagine they include all the historically and otherwise accurate real-to-life wargames, such as age of empires perhaps ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

Quote Originally posted by Sword_Monkey:
Now, I'm just a relative newbie to this game, but my vote is for B) Leave it as is in WE. [/QUOTE]
what can i say, always good to see clueless newbies make important decisions http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

One, I think the "problem" is largely a multi-player one.

- it is for some of us, however it is as much of a problem in SP regardless

Two, I think the "problem" is largely based on resistance to the new system. It's a new twist to the older game which changes the battlefield tactics needed. Since the change in morale is due to the change in unit selection, if you really hate it there is still the original game for the "old timers" who really care about the difference. No one is forcing you to buy and play the new expansion (albeit, EA would certainly like to find a way).

- wow aren't you ever so smart; we don't have to buy it... imagine. perhaps we want some new features, and want the game improved. it is resistance to the new system- because the new system is just plain insane-bad-wrong, whatever you want to call it. the bottom line is that you have an option to turn the morale off, if you so desire, so you have a choice to play arcade game, however the new system is equivalent to "morale off" setting, therefore we DON'T have a choice to play the more realistic game. please take your time to try understand that concept... no rush really...

Three, although I get the feeling this point is frowned upon by the majority of the forum, it _is_ more newbie friendly.

- it shouldn't be. everyone is new to it at one point, so what, you learn/get used to it. what do you do next once you are over the newbie phase? throw the game out?
- regardless, it is not 'newbie-friendly'; it was turned into arcade game that is rather 'moron-friendly'


(as the frequently routing troops in my single player campaign (both mine and the enemy's)when I do something right/wrong attest to.

- that really says a lot... if you have problem with shogun's AI then you should really try to practice more instead of posting nonsense http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif btw, try to turn morale off it might be easier then, hehehe



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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[The Daimyo]

I like Magyar's selection here, actually. If they won't do that, well then perhaps I'll pick C and just be vague! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[MagyarKhans Cham]

how do u know my Khans vote is yours? it was my personal vote

[DoCToR]

JD, i really don't think you should be so aggressive and condescending to new players....when did it become an elitist choice??

....they have the same rights to their opinions as do the old time STW players! Their opinions may be misguided if they have never played the original, but that would be expected. Nevertheless if they like it the way it is then that should be respected...they paid the same money for it as the rest of us did! Ultimately it's the opinions and actions of the CA team that will really matter and they'll pick what they think is relevant feedback from this thread and modify accordingly! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Unfortunately, since i don't have a copy yet i cannot agree/disagree with any of the above statements regarding the morale issue.

DOC

[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 08-24-2001).]

yeah, you just disagreed with ME !!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[DoCToR]

lol

I disagreed with you in regards to the way you attacked the value of new players' opinions, not about ongoing issue of morale JD http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

DOC

[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 08-24-2001).]

[EuroSan]

Jay-dee attacks everyone regardless your new or old, if you disagree with him http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
(Got to love the guy for it)

First choice is D
Then C

I have allways been a spoker for higher moral for samuraijs Soldiers/Units, but this thing is silly...i saw what Dave/Fury saw on the NagaCAv thing..and it happend ...even a Hcav 2h holded off 2 monk 1 dachi alone the whole battle...the hcav was down to 14 in the end when the enemy ran(they wherent allmost any left to run taugh).....after i had that leak(piss)pause for the second time under that Battle http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

hey ! any more of my friends who would like to make me look bad ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[darealruler]

Obviously an A!!!!!!!!!

Cant blame those newbies for voting for B as it will give them a much larger chance against skilled opponents than in stw.
But one day, when they played versions (if they got both versions) they'll notice why MI morale is.....don't really know how to express in right words..............fantasy would come close to what i mean :P.

DARE!

[DragonCat]

Better check your facts. Its not just newbies that like the new morale. I've been around longer than most - although I did take an extended vacation from the game - and on the old ranking I was as high as 49- BEFORE the cheats started.

And to prove my point- I got rushed and routed in the NEW game just the other night. . . so its still possible. Maybe you "oldtimers" need to play a little more and learn a few new tactics.

I think the current morale is much better, as do MANY other "oldtimeres."

I've already voted, so I won't again.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[TakeshidaSo]

And Cat's vote was "on record" as C, until ONE battle, changed your mind. A battle where you say you got surprised, but thats all you say.

Dont forget that many newer players are only playing SP campaign battles with units that have low honor, and many of those early campaign units also have low morale too. These are not the kind of games we want to play online. Also, for those of you who vote B, remember you are voting for the elimination of STW's morale system as an option for others. This is in spite of the overwhelming support it has, among the people who used it the most.

This election has seen nearly all of the problems I said that early elections, and elections in general will have.

[TakeshidaSo]

Although I no longer abstain, I will write in my vote, so that the elections commision is allowed to interpret my vote in any way they see fit.

I think the Morale structure of STW operated perfectly. Most ancient battles had few casualties up until the time the army routed. Even at Sekigahara two-thirds of the defeated army survived. Possibly it was similar to STW in that the greater portion of losses occured during the pursuit. The pursuit part of STW battles is just as critical as the skirmishing, and the initial melee. STW has the realistic feel of ancient warfare, for both the SP and MP games. It doesnt matter if the tactical battles are online or in one of the SP options; MI shouldnt replace the realistic morale system of STW with a more user-friendly one, just to make it more popular. I think the learning curve needed for morale has been replaced with a need only to become familiar with the units, and how to match them up. The need to understand morale, and use it to your advantage, seems to be removed in favor of a more simplified version of war. Maybe less realism will make the game more desirable, and make it more like a lot of other games I can think of, but I dont have to like it. There is always talk of how "I was winning up until something unexplainable happened", so let me ask; if you were winning why didnt the enemy rout instead of you? Many comments about "why are my men running", were heard. I tend to think its because you let the enemy rout a portion of your army, and the rest were close enough to be effected by it, and possibly other negative factors. Thats why it is critical to improve your understanding of morale modifiers. Many players use low honor troops in high koku games, and this wouldnt have happened if they routed too easily. Do you really want a game thats not realistic, just so its easier for you to do unrealistic things. It is unrealistic for armies to suffer such a large percentage of their losses prior to a general rout. What is the Morale, or Fatigue, setting for? Why did most online people play below 10,000 koku per player if they really wanted this kind of simulation? Why remove that flexibility from the game structure? Most everyone played some games with high koku, or Morale and Fatigue settings off, and they are fun games. They just werent the commonly played games. Didnt STW's system allow for more flexibility, and more realistic options? Maybe you want to use settings in a different way than others do, but how can you defend the fact that the lower end morale options are raised, when the higher end options were never that popular before?

[Lord Aeon]

I know i already logged my vote (B), but i would like to add that it might be feasible to include an option for toggling low morale and high morale in the game.

I'm not sure, but i think that different unit types anjoy different morale stats, so it makes sense that this is all so confusing for us. In MI, the lowest hand-to-hand morale unit is gone, so it should follow that MI battles show more exaggerated morale "increases" than Sengoku battles.

But please, take all this wiht a grain of salt; my opinions should probably not factor into this debate and, ultimately, into the decision because i don't have one of those pretty pictures with the purple lettering to the left. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[DoCToR]

Here's my initial thoughts on morale:

1. In the SP campaign in the Sengoku era the morale of the units seems to work absolutely fine and in my opinion does not need to be changed whatsoever...
SO a B for SP JApanese campaign!

2. However, ibn the custom battles the morale seems to be a little different and the units definitely fight a lot longer and rout a lot less... I had a unit of H2 YA fight to the last man against JHC and YS!! :eek!! Definitely seemed to be a little skewed...
SO a C for everything else!

3. No experience as of yet on the multiplayer and so can't comment...

DOC

[Trousermonkey]

C

I would prefer to choose D and have the moral adjustable but I don't think the developers want to spend any more time then they have to fixing Shogun when the exciting new CTW is coming up. Make the moral more like it was pre-expansion and I'll be happy(happier).

[MagyarKhans Cham]

thats why we need an adjustmentable option that would suit everyone and is simple to programma and i am 100% sure that most battles will be resolved with the old system...

dragon u maybe long in here when considering your starting date but u were away for a long time as i remember well...

[The Daimyo]

Sorry about the mix ups lately MagyarKhan's Cham, I get cornfused with those names being so similar. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif



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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[KyodaiFunky]

A

[Kocmoc]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH,

i cant stop laughing.

the majority of the guys who vote with B
i have never seen in old STW,...
HEY GUYS HOW U CAN VOTE??????

U DONT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!!!!!!

I bet u guys pick ur army and slect all and than doubleclick on 1 unit....

i got it?!?!?!

what we need is a realism game, where ur skills decide over a win or a loss!

in MI u where a weak cheap unit can hold 2 strong expenciv units (expect sams and cav here) all can win!! ur skill isnt important!!

IF we want to play 1 more year, and the most of this newbies dont want to do this, we need a moral system like the old STW.

MAG´s idea is good, create a button where we can setup on ourselfs....

im total sure, after some months we all will use the old moral...

MY VOTE: A


Why we all played this game?

coz we DONT WANT A GAME LIKE C&C ....

WE WANT A GAME WHERE WE CAN CREATE OWN TACTICS, WHERE UR SKILL DECIDE WHO WIN!!!


KOC

[nokhor]

a

------------------
indeed

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

I typed a long post and then IE quited :-(
I will sumarise now.

We can have nice discussions about which morale would be good and we can vote about it, but no matter what the outcome will be some people will feel disapointed.

What this game needs are toggles and sliderbars. Not only for the morale but also for other things. So custom battles can be more effectively used for training (you want to train a musketarmy in rain or dry?), set AI aggressiveness, but also online training, agree about wheater conditions (host sets it and it's visible for others), koku trooplimitations, allowed units. Most can already be done with the troopstat and projectile, but not all. If you want to play many different styles at one night, you've to swap a lot of files.

Here's also a bright point of light. The developers have made this game so that Troopstats and Projectile can be swapped on the flight (change it without relaunching STW but not while a battle is going on).

Basically we could make a bat file and a number of Stats in folders. By executing the bat file one could select a Stat from one directory and overwrite (copy) the current one (set for a new game style). But this would require a lot of alt tabbing. And if one player forgets to do so, players will go out of sync. If CA makes a 'bat' in the game (sliders, toggles for the host), and anyone who joins that server will automatically copy/activate the right Stats then everyone can play the game he wants to. It would be very nice if CA allows us to add our own Stats to the Toggle/slider/selection list. New stats will have to get distributed via the internet.



------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[barocca]

I agree with MagyarKhans Cham

D) make it optional (perhaps even with a slidebar)




------------------
DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)

[Gothmog]

Quote Originally posted by JayDee Daidoji:
(blah, blah, blah)[/QUOTE]

One of the most immature posts I have read so far in this forum. Just who the heck you think you are?

What can I say? Let's use that lame line of Al Gore:

"Let's count every vote, because ... every vote counts."



[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 08-26-2001).]

[Puzz3D]

A

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-26-2001).]

[TakeshidaSo]

A lot of people have now cast there votes as (D), which wasnt one of the initial candidates. "Hach" has already said that he would interpret votes for (D) as being votes for (B). There are others who voted for two candidates, and more who have written in their votes. I wrote mine in, but want to clarify now that it's an (A) vote, because I'm afraid that it might be misinterpreted if the election commision has a predetermined bias towards one candidate or the other.

[Koga No Goshi]

First of all, I really don't see the relevancy of getting into a chest-thrusting competition over who's been playing longer. Everyone paid for this game, no one who's been playing online a little longer paid MORE for it nor does playing it longer make what YOU want more valid than what anyone else wants. (Perhaps slightly more informed, but then again, perhaps less flexible/receptive to ANY type of change whatsoever if it means you have to adjust your tried-and-true tactics.)

Show a little respect for everyone else's point of view guys.



------------------
Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[hach]

C

------------------
The greatest thrill in life is not to Kill' but to let live!

[DoCToR]

B for SP campaigns

A for custom battles and online games

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[ELITEofGAZOZ]

I vote for A

or make it at least optional (otpion D as Magy suggested)

[clink]

Have a tendency more to the A side.
A happy medium between A and B would suffice. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif


---------------------------------------------

'Eat your weakest man'

[Magyar Khan]

I just came up with a good idea, make the morale optional with a button or checkbox!

[Tangent]

My vote is for A) or very close to it.

Battles are more about morale than attrition.

Tangent

[JAG]

A all the way. . .and what koc said is write some of the ppl woh have voted b i have not even seen in the original sshogun. . . .now that is dissapointing. .to vote on something u do not know a thing about!

------------------

Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

[KukriKhan]

Been playing MI for 10 days now, and (gulp) I must admit, there is a problem. I voted "B" before, seeing no major glitch that I couldn't adapt to with a change in tactics. Sadly, that doesn't carry over into Multiplayer.

So, at the risk of invalidating my vote by a hanging chad, I now vote:

C

medium adjustment. IMO the "a" option, while worthy, simply takes STW and adds new units. I feel the hypothetically shocking arrival of the golden horde on Nippon's shores SHOULD disrupt its military class (that would be, umm...US in the game) and force a rethinking of strategy and tactics - but NOT a simple edict: "All units shall fight to the last man" issued by the Emporer (CA, in this case). Though admirable in concept, such an edict is destructive in the extreme in its execution, insuring the rapid decimation of the Japanese nation and its male gene pool. I cannot believe the Emporer would do this.

I apologize for any adminstrative problems I've created by changing my vote. If the change invalidates my vote altogether, I humbly accept that consequence.

[MajorFreak]

A

[Maltz]

I haven't got a chance to play the expansion pack yet. But I still want to vote A as I was scared by the feedback so far.

I was thinking to make units routing EVEN easier than the old STW as it resembles real life more. hehe