Let me try to explain..

[RageFury]

OK no offence intended here but i notice that most of u guys who love the morale as it is.. are either newbies to warlords..or were newbies at STW....and that ucant understand why some of us seem pissed about the new morale thing.

Wel for me..it takes away realism, makes the game damned boring.

In STW no matter wot people said about easy routing u could read the battle u could feel if u winning or not..where u need to reinforce..the rout could be only moments away..had to be on ur toes..it was tense and exciting..as well as taking a lot of skill...newbies cannot pick up the game like arcade and be good at it...


In the new one..half the units fight till nearly the last man...tactics whilst working to a degree still take away the excitement value... u get the feeling that u could go and take a leakwhile ur men keep fighting ad it'll still be ok when u get back...it is easier to win..there is no flow to the battle because it is completely matching unit for unit...rock paper scissors thing.

watching every unit fight till nearly the last man makes u fall asleep..no longer on edge of chair..not trying frantically to reinforce an area to gain the flank.. its just..so bland...


as an example..in a 3v3 today..i had an honour 3 Naginata Cavalry unit. He was bein atacked on three fronts..Heavy Cavalry from below, Yari Sam (honour4) from front, Warrior Monks (honour 3) from left, and also being shot by guns from above and left. My nagi cav un8it fought till the last man without once wavering. This is pathetic and quite frankly immensely boring.

I think this is wot many Shogun Vets r finding when they play X-Pack. just thought id explain to u guys who think we r being sad...or newbies who love new game..and cant understand why we pissed.

-Fury

How can you expect newbies to know about the difference in morale if they never really experienced the normal STW morale? That's obvious - logic, Fury.

In some STW games I nearly had heart attacks with excitement and panic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif and it was really fun. Well I haven't experienced the xpack yet but if the games are boring then it sucks...like playing morale off then.

But I don't think that the moral issue is totally negative. I am sure that it has its good points. Try to find them, too.


------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[Yagyu Emissary Kensen]

I guess I'm contradicting myself, but he does have a point.

[A Nerd]

Samurai beleived in reincarnation...they were not afraid to die...

[Khan7]

Okay, I'm going to say as nicely as I can that a flip oneliner from anyone is meaningless in such a debate, especially in response to a nice long, well-thought through post by Takeshida. Since flaming only wastes energy, I propose we simply ignore such insults to the intelligence of the debate.

------------------
Khan7

[Steve Macduff]

Quick question: If you but the Warlords Edition and play the origional campagne, what morale system does it use? old or new?

[RageFury]

Well Steve from wot i have seen it uses new one..
But to be honest mate it is not hardly an issue in SP campaigns..units do seem to rout like humans..wont ruin ur SP experience at all...i

It is just multiplayer that sux

-Fury

[Steve Macduff]

Alright thanks.

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Confirmed in SP they still run like the whipped dogs that they are...

[Lord Aeon]

Ohhh, ok. I understand now. The reason i feel the way i feel about the morale issue is because i don't know as much as you. Thanks for clearing that up!

LOL, "no offence intended"... why would i take offense at that?

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Jaguar]

I might be wrong, but here's my guess..

I the SP, you would rather your units route when losing , because then u can use them again.

In multiplayer, I think that the develpoers thought that since we don't use routed troops left over, they should make them less likely to rout, and fight to the death.

As for saying there's no strategy left, not true. You don't just run your units head on, you can still flank and stuff like that for the attack bonus, so you can decimate the enemy quicker, instead of in SP when you rout the enemy quicker.

Tell me if i'm making any sense

------------------
Honour to Clan Shades!

[Lord Aeon]

"as an example..in a 3v3 today..i had an honour 3 Naginata Cavalry unit. He was bein atacked on three fronts..Heavy Cavalry from below, Yari Sam (honour4) from front, Warrior Monks (honour 3) from left, and also being shot by guns from above and left. My nagi cav un8it fought till the last man without once wavering."

I'm sorry, but i'm not sure i quite believe you. Without ONCE wavering? I'm not saying you're lying, not at all... just that this is a little far-fetched... maybe you missed the wavering status at some time? Were you concentrating on another facet of the battle with other units?

I've tried to duplicate your particular experience, and while i cannot possibly duplicate it to the letter, my unit was always wavering... maybe there weere some other circumstances that lent to the morale of your unit... were they "winning" or "winning easily" at all in their skirmish (even for a bit)?

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Sword_Monkey]

I've got a theory. The veterans of this game who played under the lower morale of STW became really good at troop formation/positioning/flanking and so on. Hence, under the higher morale base of WE _they_ are seeing these "boring" and "unrealistic" unit behaviors because their tactics totally take army morale/cohesiveness into effect.

I definitely do not have this problem http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Nor do I suspect will those others that cut their teeth on WE. Considering how much EA/CA needs the WE to sell compared to the original STW I appreciate the somewhat more newbie friendly approach.

(EA made the godawful mistake of announcing WE before Christmas and announcing it would include the original game for one price, presumably because they planned to release it in 2001 Q1. I think they killed the sales of STW as I and possibly many others decided not to buy original STW because the better version was "coming soon". 8 months later I have what I waited for and am very happy with the product but a great game never got the sales it would have otherwise.)

[Satake]

All i want to add , is that i am not buying the x-pack (as of yet anyway). Maybe in the future. Right now , it's not worth getting , this kind of talk makes me appreciate good ol' STW more , and i will stay there , unless they fix the MI/WE to , in my eyes , acceptable standards. If i want to play arcade games , there is a better place to spend the money.

[RageFury]

Lol @ LordAeon.

I didnt say u didnt know as much as me..i said maybe i should explain why some of us seem pised off :P.

And seriously mate the situation with the nagi cav did happen...i was so fascinated by it that i was ignoring the rest of the battle..lol... i did not see them waver and yes at one point they were "winning" for a few seconds. Rest of the time they were losing badly.

-Fury

[This message has been edited by RageFury (edited 08-24-2001).]

[DragonCat]

RageFury,

You are totally wrong (just my opinion).
I would wager I've been playing online a LOT longer than you. I was around since near the beginning of the old STW. I am also a decent player.

I have seen plenty of routs in the new warlords. I think the theory that the good players see less routing because they use their units effectively is right on the money.

I played a comp game a day or two ago and had my ENTIRE army routed. I was caught napping by a rusher with wm, nodachi and guns and lots of yari ashiguru. He did a great job and broke my army very quickly. Seemed like old times.

I have watched an opponent's unit march out ahead and be routed just from missle fire.

I just don't seem to be having the same experience online as the rest of you.

If I have men that are winning, or NOT LOSING and they have proper flank support and mates at their back, then yes, they do seem to fight to the last man.

And I know plenty of other veteran players that agree with me. In fact, I tend to look upon you as a newbie that only understands shock tactics and only now is being introduced to the full glory of the game. (WARNING: this last paragraph is only to let you know how YOU sound).

My actual opinion, maybe a slight tweak - but essentially, the game is much improved in regards to morale.

------------------
DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Satake]

DragonCat ,

You are totally wrong (just my opinion).
I would wager I've been playing online a LOT longer than you. I was around since the beginning of the old STW. I am also a decent player.

Oh yeah , how does it feel when some1 talks to you like that? If u play for a long time , you're a vet. Ur not better than Fury cuz u were around longer than him , nor am i better cuz i was around longer than you. That point made , I will go on topic again. (This was meant to show how YOU sound)

Ok , I've seen a h0 cav archer with no upgrades , cut off from the army , attacked both front and rear by mongol light cav , start wavering at 10 men but fought till the last. No support , no taisho near , just superhuman cavalry morale. Where's the fun in this , if u aim for a quick sweep on the enemy , and send 2 strong units to rout a supposedly routable unit , then it is silly that u are actualy losing on the rest , because some unit fights till last man , occupying 2 units of yours . At honor 6 and upwards , sure , but not at h0 , come on!

[DoCToR]

Satake, how have you got the game...it only came out today!?

[Kocmoc]

i played my first online games yesterday...
MI...

it was fun...but i need to think about my strategie, coz if like satake said already
1 cheap weak unit can hold 2 stronger expensiv units, something must be wrong.....

wich tactic we can use than?

how magy said, "this is comlete against
SUN ZU.......

let me test some games more, than i will give a complete statement....

but if the picking of units get more important than ur playing skills i will leave this game and search for a better one!

i realy hope that the MI give us 1 more year
of fun, if not....many good guys will leave....


cu guys


koc

[Rath]

LOL Satake http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

btw i agree with fury's sentiments.

[Yomama]

I think RageFury is right. I am not an 'expert' player but not a newbie either. I can only refer to the 'sense' of what I 'feel' as a battl unfolds. I think that the battle honor is now more 'tight' (accurate?). I play mostly SP, I rout the enemy on regular basis but they now seem to rally much more frequently so I must keep after them. So, the battles last longer and I must give much more thought to my deployments (especially when expecting the *DAMN* reinforcements .. which I want changed..my only real gripe)
I will leave the honor and rout etc issues to the experts.
This is the best game I have played in recent years and I think CA should be commended.

[EuroSan]

Dont mix up what Dave/Fury is saying in here with SP play....its Online(MP)play he is talking about...they are diffrent!!

If you dont play Online play a custom to see little what he talks about..but since its AI you play in Custom it dont show it all either...



------------------
May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[Puzz3D]

Morale has been raised to the point where it doesn't matter if your taisho gets killed. What's with that? I don't even worry about battlefield ninjas getting my general. Not only has the need to use your army as a cohesive unit been lost, but protecting your taisho has also ceased to be a serious consideration.

You could successfully execute flanking moves under the old morale system, but you had to be careful to use high enough honor units to carry out the maneuver. It was interesting figuring out just what constituted high enough morale. Under the new system, you can flank with any unit. No worries. Another interesting aspect of the game has been lost.

Under the old morale system choosing between honor upgrades and weapon or armour ungrades would be a very interesting decision because honor upgrades improve morale. However, under the new morale system, it's a nobrainer. Knock down the honor, and get the weapons and armour. You don't need the morale boost that higher honor brings. More than ever, the battle's outcome is determined by the unit choices now.

In the Sengoku period game, monk/no-dachi rush tactics will probably continue to be a problem because no-dachi have been made stronger, most likely to try to balance the Mongol game, but this is not what the Sengoku game needed. Weakening monks or developing a counter monk unit is what would help there. An H2 Nag cav does not beat an H2 monk so that's not it. Maybe the battlefield ninja would work. I haven't tried it.

There does appear to be a definite move to increase the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the YS/SA/YC game by weakening YS armour and SA melee ability.

With the raised morale, multiplayer battles do not seem to require the same level of cooperation between allies as in the old game. You no longer have to stay as close to your ally to prevent an army routing 2 on 1 as before. If I'm right about this, then a great aspect of the old game has been lost.


MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Lord Aeon]

Well, since it's easier to kill an enemy taisho (BN, Kensai), maybe units should display a little more resolve in a fight such that the battle isn't wholly won by a couple of BN units.

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[RageFury]

hmmmm... wel Satake nice reply,

DragonCat let me simply say, no im not a brilliant player but i think fairly good,

Shock tactics are definitely not JUST wot i do..i have used so many combinations of armies and tactics that i dont have a definitives style.

Playing online since 4 days after STW's release.

And as for a "lots" of vets agreeing with you. Lots havent been online until today. And many that i have spoken to either agree with my sentiments or lean in my direction at least.

-fury

[RageFury]

Dont get me wrong though..i am not slurring the expansion pack as a whole....the music is great and the additions to single player..new units r a laff.... and new multi modes.

Just morale ruins online play for me *shrugs*

-Fury

[Puzz3D]

Lord Aeon,

I agree. Kensai and BN units would be very dangerous at the old morale setting. Imagine the challenge of neutralizing those units. Too bad we can play it like that.

The honor scale runs from 0 to 9, and the default setting for online play is 2. With the old morale level, honor=2 gives a good tactical battle where the army has to fight as a cohesive group for the most part. If you did spread out, you would have to concentrate forces quickly if attacked or risk being routed piecemeal. The default 5000 koku allows you to get units in the honor=2 range. Players who didn't like this type of gameplay set higher koku amounts so units could be upgraded, and thus, be able to operate more independently. You can go up to 9 on the scale which is a big increase in morale.

With the new morale level, honor=2 is now equivalent to at least honor=6 in the old system. The bottom half of the scale is no longer accessible. A whole style of gameplay has been lost, and nothing has been added because just going up a couple of honor points now gives you essantially unroutable units, and there isn't anything else to be gained abouve that. The honor settings above 4 are meaningless. The system saturates at around honor=4.

Why do the online players who like the new honor system think they are loosing something if the scale is reset so that the bottom half becomes usable again? I can see where it could throw the single player campaign out of balance. An old/new or low/medium/high morale option would be really nice to have.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-24-2001).]

[NoFearWonton]

yes.... morale... bad.... im no newbie!!!nhj

[edit] my cat added those extra letters.

[This message has been edited by NoFearWonton (edited 08-24-2001).]

[Algesan]

IMO, the SP units are a bit tougher than in the original, but as mentioned about, they will still run like whipped dogs. However, as you get improvements, unit honor and taisho honor up, the units get very tough and the units will start sticking it out until they are almost wiped out, especially the elite units (WM, ND, Cav).

I played my first online battle with MI last night and it was silly. H3/H4 units fighting until the last man. It was funny to see the last H3 ND in the unit running off a full unit of Muskets and the last H4 YC running off some SA, but that was a bit much.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

My Khan sended me...
----------------------------
After many battles online in MI i won them all except for one against spearrushing amp. in our jap vs mon struggle we noticed the japs beat mongols and units rout.

I feel sad to see Dragoncat defending the new morale system since as fury also exampled around the weakest can hold the strongest too long. and that have to be changed. esp in a jap vs jap battle the unitselection is most important. if u get eneough roch scissors papers matched up u will problably win teh battle. some of those jap va jap battles i nearly won against bad playing people where i was trying to make every move with approval of old Sun Tzu.

So as stated elsehwere on this forum,
make the godbamn morale optional into:
NO MORALE
NEW MORALE
MEDIUM MORALE
OLD MORALE

thsi is a favour we ask from teh developers. besides when having this we will see after some montsh which morale system is most played online and could be an example for the Crusaders morale[b]

Howl
-------------------------------------

hmm he hates fighting a lost battle so better help him guys. make the morale a button

"many players, many levels, many wishes, 1 community AND 1 MORALE SLIDEBAR"

------------------
[b]Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]

[Shoko]

Y O Y cant we all agree?*will never happen*
But seriously lets have the old rout settings back imo theres nothing better than somebody attacking ur flank and units fleeing for there lives.
Well what would u do if suprised by a gang of men waveing swords*run like hell*u wouldnt stand and fight with bare hands..would u now! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gifso lets all agree and get the patch in to fight with honour,not till we all die! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

[Trousermonkey]

I agree the moral should be changed.

I suspect players new to shogun are overwhelmed with how great the game is and are understandably loathe to change anything. But, in my opinion, the old moral system made the game much more fun.

I agree with RageFury, CA should restore what they changed and make the game fun again.

[Kocmoc]

its a question of realism.......


koc

Yuuki has given the major points of the bad side of the new morale...read his post and I'm sure everyone will stand against it.

In the old game you could flank, rear, take care of your gen, high honour men kill easily in seconds lower honoured men etc...this new morale has killed this all and it sucks.

I like the old STW morale and that's it!

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[TakeshidaSo]

Dont use the argument of "realism", because Kuma wont accept it. I even tried to dig out stats on Sekigahara to show that only 1\3 of the defeated army were killed.

People need to remember, when someone says SP and MP use different morale systems, that a lot of the SP battles they have seen use low honor units, that also have low inherent morale stats. This would be like using the minimum settings in MP, and using only the weakest units. Also remember the fact that most Jap units the Mongols face are YS and SA. These two units are weaker than they were in STW. YS had its armor reduced from 3 to 2, making it the same as YA now. SA had its defense reduced from 0 to -1, making it the same as YA now. With these main units weakened, and morale raised so that units fight longer, is it really any wonder that SP appears to be different from MP morale?

[Satake]

I'm sticking to old STW till they get things sorted. It's weird seeing the MI players in there tho! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[Lord Aeon]

I think i would be more comfortable with a change if it was done with the idea that not everyone thinks that the new morale system "sucks" or anything like that. I think that if a slider or some sort of similar OPTION was used then it would benefit everyone.

And i would really hate to see any changes to the SP Sengoku campaign, which is perfectly fine the way it is, if not better than the was it was. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[TakeshidaSo]

You mean like some kind of MORALE setting, where morale is turned off? Or maybe allowing you to spend more koku than it takes to buy all honor 9 units, with maxed out armor and weapon upgrades? Or maybe a FATIGUE setting, where units dont weaken from getting tired? Or maybe an unlimited ammo setting so that archers can overpower....wait a minute? What did you mean again?

[Lord Aeon]

Exactly.

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[clink]

I remember in the first STW I could position my archers well up on high ground, slaughtering a large number of attackers causing them to rout. Now they seem to keep comming to the last man, causing my archers to mele out of position, with maybe only maybe 5 Ashigau advancing. Also enemy archers seem to position them selves at the bottom of a hill, allowing them selves to be picked off to the last man.

[Lord Aeon]

TakeshidaSo:

"You mean like some kind of MORALE setting, where morale is turned off? Or maybe allowing you to spend more koku than it takes to buy all honor 9 units, with maxed out armor and weapon upgrades? Or maybe a FATIGUE setting, where units dont weaken from getting tired? Or maybe an unlimited ammo setting so that archers can overpower....wait a minute? What did you mean again?"


It took me awhile, but i finally realized that you weren't joking. Wow.

Unless you're daft, you would realize that when i said

"I think that if a slider or some sort of similar OPTION was used then it would benefit everyone"

that the operative phrase there would have been "a slider or some sort of similar OPTION"...

Do i need to clarify? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-26-2001).]

[Raging Road Rodent]

Just a comment: Don't classify all newbies thatway. The original thread starter, (sorry forgot your name) said that newbies can't just pick up the battle. Well, in fact, I believe newbies can, and I also believe they learn it quit quicly watching time and time again, their armies being routed be inferior numbers, superior numbers, superior quality troops, honour, whathaveyou.

But, it is a game that takes time to learn. Thank god you don't spend 25c per shot...eh?

[Lord Aeon]

LOL, that's what i said. But the response was that he wasn't trying to explain why newbies suck, but why veterans are better. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

j/k

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Raging Road Rodent]

Sure, I was also pointing out that is it incorrect to stereotype and classify all-newbies.

[RageFury]

um actually i didnt say newbies didnt understand the game..i said u may not understand why some of us is pissed off..

I know for a fact that when i was newbie i didnt understand all aspects of the game...i dont even now :P

Besides if u are a newbie who has only played WE/MI how the hell should u be expected to compare WE and STW? or understand the differences..unless someones explains or u play it urself.

Besides it is a fact u are only a newbies until u understand all the workings of the game..u may be an expert at Single Player but that doesnt mean u understand how online play works... i know peeps who were playing for a year before learning to move sideways in formation *shrugs*

If u three know it all a week after playing the game then u are not newbies


-Fury

[Vanya]

Another classic soap opera at the Org!

[Gets fresh bowl of popcorn and a big jug of sake.]

[Magyar Khan]

as the world turns

[JAG]

i too dislike the new morale and i do not see a problem with having a slidebar for what morale setting u want the game to be! it would settle all this and it would make many ppl happy again!

------------------

Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

------------------
"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif

[jomni]

I am an EXPERIENCED player of the original STW and I would like to disagree with the very first post saying that the game becomes quite "boring" and "easy" with the new morale settings. I am actually having a hard time winning battles. Admit it guys... we're just losing battles to newbies and it hurts our pride. That's why we result to all this sourgraping about the new morale system being unrealistic.

And if you ask me, I'm as FRUSTRATED as you guys!!! I go for realism and I want the old settings back (or somewhere in the middle). Good thing morale in the SP Campaigns work like the old version.

[RageFury]

um dunno bout the rest of these guys but im not bein beaten often thats kinda the problem..its too easy to win...i went to 124 honour in like an hour...pathetic..

Fury

And CeltiSkull if u dont have anything decent to add to the conversation then dont post at all...ur pathetic posts with just a smiley or *zzzzz* just show ur ignorance

[MagyarKhans Cham]

it iis like going from chess towards checkers. u still have to think to win but the tactical options are limited

[Lord Aeon]

I have to take issue with your analogy. Any real chess player will tell you that a game of chess is a dam sight more complicated than this game EVER was. Now, i understand what you guys want. You don't want to lose to newbies in MP. You want the emphasis taken off the strengths and weaknesses of individual units and placed squarely on how quickly and efficiently you can flank your opponents.

That's fine. But skill with flanking manouevers do not come CLOSE to the skill it takes to win a chess game. In STW, one good flanking manoeuver, and the enemy's entire army is running like a bunch of kindergarteners. LOL, in chess, you don't lose one pawn and see all your pieces flying off the board!

What i'm trying to get at here is that just because some of your old strategies don't work as well doesn't mean that there aren't new strategies to develop. Most of you seem upset only because you can't win as easily as you could before. You're being forced to adapt your strategies as the playing field has been levelled (relatively speaking).

See, a good chess player is thinking about your potential reactions to his manouevers, and vice versa; he's thinking 10 or 12 moves into the future, and all possible outcomes, not just about protecting his flank and getting to yours. The "chess" analogy is probably more properly applied to the SP campaign; MP battles aren't chess matches, they're more like rockum-sockum robots (watch for the hook! lol). Whether you want to believe it or not, the old STW battles were all about flanking and monk rushes. It was never terribly complicated.

The new morale might make it SEEM like that football game we all had back in the day (where you turn it on and the pieces vibrate on that little plastic field), but that's mostly because no one's bothered to try to develop new strategies. The thinking is, "oh, it's too hard to rout your opponent, i quit, and i never wanna play this game again!" which is, obviously, a rather absurd attitude to take.

I mean, so your enemy's units fight until there's only 12-15 men left? Big deal! Makes it that much harder to win. You would think that such a battle-savvy community would look at it more as a challenge than the boogey-man. Will you all let yourselves be 'routed' by a change in the morale system (i must add: a change you all ASKED for)?

In other words, there are other ways to rout your opponent than just attack him with a stronger unit. Getting units in position behind him, as well as flank attacks, getting him to separate his forces by hiding and baiting, etc., are all tactics that still work! But there's other manouevers as well! BN sneak attacks? Tiring your opponent by making him chase cavalry? Soaking up arrows with Kensai? That uphill thunderbomber trick move? Attack with NC to keep the enemy immobile and launch arrows into the fray?

I mean, now, maybe it's the case that group formations are more important... i was going to continue with some of this stuff for the FotD, but it got old fast! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Anyway, something you might want to try, since the cascade rout is minimized, is to rout some quick moving troops - e.g. Cav Archers - on your front line (rout button), let those pesky MHC give chase uphill into the waiting spears of YS! Your Cav archers can sit back and wail on them! Your fresh YS won't take too many morale hits, and with the Cav archers now to their backs, they are more stalwart than ever. The new morale is great for rout feints... he sees your guys are running away, and gives chase thinkig the battle is won... and BANG! lol

See what i mean? This new morale has tactical advantages as well... c'mon with all the moaning! Please! You guys are smarter than this! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Let's start discussing tactics, and developing new strategies.

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[DragonCat]

I couldn't agree more with the last post.

One of the things I can finally do in the new system is cavalry feints. That was next to IMPOSSIBLE in the old system. Your cavalry would turn and run off the battlefield even with no losses.

I also greatly appreciate the efforts Puzz3d has made to figure out exactly what's happening. It is clear from his careful testing that some sort of change is needed. But in NO way do I want to go back to the insta-rout because you got a little flanked. It robs me of opportunities to bait, feint, sacrifice, have gambits, etc.

I stayed away from this debate for over a week, and its amazing that it is still going. But I am greatly heartened to see that some people are doing valid and competent testing, and that some deeper issues are finally getting discussed.

Let's hope that the final result is something to ALL our liking!

------------------
DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i get the suggestion that u never really played chess or u r a terrible chess player as well as a bad shogunplayer. What is your online name? U ever battled against my Khan?

[Alastair]

Aeon, I am a "real" chess player, my US Chess Federation rating is 1527, and us "real" chess players only calculate (what you call thinking ahead multiple moves) in needed situations. In most situations, we have a plan (hopefully) and try to carry it out. In many positions, we *are* thinking about protecting our weak points (flank-equivalents) and putting pressure on his.

Quote LOL, in chess, you don't lose one pawn and see all your pieces flying off the board!
[/QUOTE]

That's actually not true. In many situations in chess, if you lose one pawn (without compensation), that may mean a loss. Because your opponent can (many times) trade down to a winning endgame.

So Magy's analogy of going from chess to checkers is quite right. The new morale system places far less importance on tactics and far more on unit selection. The actual battle involves very little thought that has much effect on the outcome of the battle.

[Maltz]

I guess the trouble can be solved by offering one more option in the morale:

1. Off
2. Mild (Warlord Edition)
3. Hard Core (Original Shogun Total War)

Then people can be much happier. But didn't I hear that there will be NO patch for STW from now on because the company is busy making CTW? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[EuroSan]

One pawn can mean a victory in the long run..

But this game isnt anything near chess really , but i understand Magys point...i played chess many years, not Club/tourney played since 10 years back..but play weekly...offline and online
Here is for any Chess lover a great thing to DL http://www.kasparovchess.com/serve/templates/freehtml.asp?p_docID=9514&p_docLang=EN



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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[Lord Aeon]

Well, i don't play chess online much, but i've been play constantly ever since preschool and third seat at my pretentious private high school (nerd! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ).

Against a skilled opponent, chess is, IMO, much more complicated than STW MP battles. And yes, i realize that one pawn *can* influence the outcome of a game - lol, yes, that's obvious - but what i was trying to get at is that losing a pawn does not equal instant loss. Anyone who's lost a pawn in a chess game and has managed a win can attest to that. You've taken my analysis a bit too far, i think.

Anyway, the point of my post was that giving up is the easiest thing to do right now. I don't think that is a viable solution, especially if you're a fan of having FUN, like me.

Not to mention that i actually consider myself to be a pretty good chess player, a point to which many of my opponents will attest. In fact, i love a challenge (*cough* unlike some of the folks here *cough* http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ) and i would love to play any of you guys. Not that i would necessarily win, but because it would be FUN.

I'm not trying to debate the merits of chess vs. STW; what i'm trying to impart to you guys is that a changing situation does not always have to equal a change for the negative, and that i think we ought to turn our attention to developing new strategies that take advantage of the new morale instead of throwing out the baby with the bath, so to speak.


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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[DragonCat]

LOL, I don't believe any of you have played chess! Have you never heard of gambits, sacrifices etc? Trading men for position is VERY powerful in both chess and in the tactical game we all know and love.

And for those of you who think there is less strategy with the current morale, then I have a difference of opinion.

But as my ex-wife's grandmother used to say "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

Give us options, I'll play you your way and you can play me my way and we'll have great games in both instances.

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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[MagyarKhans Cham]

what i wanted to point out is that checkers may be nice but chess is nicer. MI addon may be nice , old shogun is much nicer.

[Puzz3D]

Lord Aeon,

You have stated the issue very clearly. What is the optimum balance between maneuver and attrition in causing a unit to rout? A full strength unit shouldn't be running away unless it's in a really bad position or has very low morale. Likewise, a surrounded unit shouldn't be fighting to the last man unless it's fearless.

From what I've seen in WE/MI online there is quite a bit of "fighting to the last man". The units I see routing at 12 - 15 men are getting hit with a huge number of position related morale factors in addition to the 75% casualties they have suffered by the time they are down to 15 men. Plays like all the units are fanatical. Get set for the Ashi rush in the Sengoku game which a couple of players have already perfected. That's the lowest morale unit out there.

I do fine in the WE/MI battles, and they are fun. However, once the hth fighting starts, mentally I'm just drawing a line between units I want matched up, and trying to be careful that I don't cause a traffic jam that gets my units hung up on the wrong enemy unit because they criss-cross all over the palce now. You couldn't play like that in STW or you would be routed in no time. Flanking still works to get your kill rate up, and is an effective tactic.

Faking a rout in WE/MI won't fool an experienced player because the only way a nearly full strength unit really routs in WE/MI is by the so called auto-rout bug. If you auto-rout, you ain't comin' back. I saw this happen to a opponent's 53 man MLC unit before any hth fighting occured. So, raising the morale didn't fix it. It still happens. If CA/DT raised the morale in an attempt to fix this, then they missunderstood the problem.

It could very well be that STW is not optimized at 5000 koku, and that people play it there because it's the default. In about 8 online battles I had with WE/MI morale set 4 points above that used in STW no one thought morale was too high or too low, but these are all STW vet who know the morale system. Cavalry definitely works better.

The thing that makes morale tough to gauge during a battle is that there is so little visual feedback on it. It's hard to tell when a unit is taking a morale hit due to it's positioning. When I identified the impetuous/steady/uncertain/wavering/running transition points on the morale scale, I saw how big the "steady" range is. I always thought is was larger than the uncertain range, but was surprised at how big it is: about 3 times the size of the uncertain and wavering ranges combined. The player is getting no imformation about the morale level of his unit until it gets down to uncertain, and then it's only a relatively short hop to "see ya later". This means you really need a lot of experience to understand how morale is working in the battles.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Originally posted by Lord Aeon:
"..Most of you seem upset only because you can't win as easily as you could before.."

Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
"i get the suggestion that u never really played chess or u r a terrible chess player as well as a bad shogunplayer..."
_____________________________________________

C'mom we are talking about an issue concerning a game here, not child slavery. Can we all make an attempt to stay civil and discuss the issues without any accusations or puerile elitist remarks. Please?




[This message has been edited by KumaRatta Yamamoto (edited 09-01-2001).]

[Lord Aeon]

I don't see what's so offensive about what i said. It wasn't meant to be an insult, just what i get from what i've been reading. Some people are upset about being (and this is almost verbatim) "defeated by newbies because of the new morale." It is either true or it isn't. Either way, i meant no harm.

And i try not to take offense at what other people say about me in a personal manner. This guy doesn't know the first thing about ME, so what he said didn't bother me at all. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Didn't even think twice about it until i read your post.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Kocmoc]

hmmmm,

i think it a question of ur opponent....
if i play some guys, i see after the first minute that i will win...
against other guys, it takes maybe 1 hour
and i cant say till the end if i win or not :P

in such games, i can loose or win, anyway...
this games are the best ever and i dont forget this GREAT games....

...i think i rememebr the most games agasint magy, they was all great...well, not our first games, where i lost badly http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

if u play against a very good player, it is like chess, YES....u can only move slow, step by step....it take ages to get a li´ttle advance and this advance is never enought to ensure ur victory.....

kocmoc

[Jemasze Toda]

This is my second day online with Mi and i can't say too much about it yet. But some things i already discovered and they annoyed me immensly:
The laughable, no better call it ridiculous Kensai. I had one fight where i battled a dude who included 4 Kensais in his army. I won quite easily, but these battlefield-supermans were such a pain in the ass. I surrounded one with 3 units Nodachi and 1 Yc and he still fought for ages!! Another got shot at by 2 gun units and one CA for over 2 minutes ( my opponent seemed to have forgotten him) from a distance where they should have killed even a rabbit in no time and he not only survived but run finally straight into my guns and slaughtered lots of them. I reinforced the guns with one full-strengh Heavy cav( my general) and one 52 men strong Nodachi, surrounded this guy again and had to wait for almost 3 minutes until he died. Wow, that gave me a laugh! I mean, it may be a nice feature, if a Kensai is able to hold a bridge against overwhelming odds for a long period of time, until he is reinforced but on a open field with no cover, no brigde, no castle-gate to minimize the enemies ability to attack him from all sides AND with the rest of his army already gone like the wind? Yeah, cool. That is Bruce Lee killing evil scissormans Kung-Fu horde on the island all over again! Hehe actually it was more like "Kentucky fried chicken"
I played some mongol-time battles as well and i encountered in at least half of them Mongol heavy cav rushs. Nice... now i reduced my jap army to all Yari plus archers and deploy in safe places ( you all know that back wooden hill in totomi which was so annoying in STW...) only and i win easily, but is that what the Mongol-invasion expansion is about? Reducing the balance of your armies instead of increasing it? This is worse than the good old monk-rush!
Also i don't take high honour troops anymore, there is no need for them! Good weapons and especially armour wins the game...
And one question still is on my mind: What about the Ninjas? If i killed the enemies army and he has only one hidden Ninja left, do i have to search for it all day? Hehe
But guys, this is only my second day, so my statements may prove to be of no point in the future, when i learn more about the tactics of MI, but the Kensai stays a ridiculous feature, at least in my opinion.

best wishes
yours Jemasze