Definitive solution for MORALE

[MagyarKhans Cham]

My Khan sended me...

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Howl

There is only one solution for the morale system make it optional into:

1) NO MORALE
or leave this one out since it was mostly used by cheaters

2) NEW MORALE
what we have now, so dragoncat and the newbies can play with this setting

3) MEDIUM MORALE
somewhere in between old and new morale

4) OLD MORALE
like we had in shogun for those who cant live without it

this is a favour we ask from teh developers. besides when having this we will see after some months which morale system is most played online and could be an example for the Crusaders morale.

Guys i strongly advise u to support such an option since we might end up with less and less players online. and without enemies no battles.

Howl
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Yeah my Great KHan i support u.....

gallopGALLOPgallopGALLOPgallop


[This message has been edited by MagyarKhans Cham (edited 08-25-2001).]

[Khan7]

Sounds good-- if they'll do it. So far they're leaving it to us to do all the modifications, and they don't seem to happy about even that. But we'll see.

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Khan7

[Algesan]

After a few online battles, I'm starting to swing towards morale reduction. I'm still thinking that the factor involved is that all MP units are base H2 instead of the H0 of SP. Perhaps make MP units H0 instead of H2?

My thought is based on the fact that SP H0 armies with +1 from most taishos act about the same as in STW, a bit tougher, but going for the rout is still good tactics. However, using MP units at H3/4 (equivalent to a legendary dojo with +2 taisho for base units) my units all fight until under 20 at least, usually under 10. This is not a bad thing in SP for trained veterans under a high honor taisho, but it is usually only a few units in the army. Most units tend to be having their honor kept in check by adding replacements.

Edit: Why don't some of the more regular players get together and fight some base H0 friendly battles. Possibly by simply building your "standard" armies and then dropping the honor across the board by 2. Don't spend the extra koku received. See how it plays then.

[This message has been edited by Algesan (edited 08-25-2001).]

[Pussiecat]

Magyarkahns cham,

Is your great kahn ill?? his howling seems a little weak up their!

[Shoko]

Sorry 2 ask such a silly question but whats all this morale stuff about?Is this whats happening H2unit takes more losses to rout than a h2unit in STW or am i way or track? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

[DoCToR]

Here's my initial thoughts on morale:

1. In the SP campaign in the Sengoku era the morale of the units seems to work absolutely fine and in my opinion does not need to be changed whatsoever...

2. However, ibn the custom battles the morale seems to be a little different and the units definitely fight a lot longer and rout a lot less... I had a unit of H2 YA fight to the last man against JHC and YS!! :eek!! Definitely seemed to be a little skewed...

3. No experience as of yet on the multiplayer and so can't comment...

DOC

[Algesan]

Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
Sorry 2 ask such a silly question but whats all this morale stuff about?Is this whats happening H2unit takes more losses to rout than a h2unit in STW or am i way or track? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif[/QUOTE]

Yes, units are tougher in the expansion. This is good in SP since in the original hitting a unit in the flank would quickly start a chain rout and let you spend most of your time in pursuit action.

Cham or Magyar, do you play SP and if you do, is there a problem with the morale when you play SP?

[Lord Aeon]

Algesan, your H0 idea is actually a very good one. I happen to think that this might work for those that dislike the new moral system.

Thing is, i don't think the problem will go away... many people will still be complaining because their H2 troops (after paying for the upgrade) still "fight like H6 troops." Apparently, it's a matter of some principle for those that don't like the way things are. They seem to be looking for a fundamental change in the morale system as opposed to a simple increase of the routing chances of units.

I mean, really, there's the simple solution of just playing with H0 troops and leaving the morale system alone... that option is available now, but no one seems to be taking it... i couldn't begin to guess why not...

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-25-2001).]

[Khan7]

I would think that the major reason would be that it's a royal pain the bum. It would mean you can't have varying honor levels. Why wouldn't the people who disliked the old morale simply play high koku battles in the old version? And there they actually would've had options, because you can have varying degrees of high koku for varying degrees of higher morale. But as many have stated, I believe, (1) h0 morale is still gonna be a bit wacked (somehow the explanation that it's just honor that makes all the difference doesn't ring true to me.. I haven't noticed even a slight difference in SP Campaigns but custom battles and from what I hear of online sounds batty), (2) you can't have varying degrees of h0 morale, it's just h0, there's nowhere you can go with it.

Basically providing options would be a fix that compared to many of the fixes they've done in past patches would be quite easy. It's a nobrainer, and it would at least shut people up who would otherwise be raising a ruckus (and IMHO a quite rightful ruckus :-) ).

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Khan7

Actaully No, the honour 0 solution is not that good.

In normal koku games + high koku you have to spend all your koku anyway and you have to take surely honour 2+ guys.

And by saying "make all units hon0" you will probably get many rushers anyway.

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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[Lord Aeon]

"you can't have varying degrees of h0 morale, it's just h0, there's nowhere you can go with it"

Sure there is. There's weapon and armor upgrades.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Lord Aeon]

Nevertheless, like i said, and like others have intuited, the H0 solution would be seen as more of a band-aid solution than anything else.

I don't mind tellin' you guys: I don't think anything's wrong with the new morale system. But i think we need to adress the fact that decreasing honor will affect other facets of the game. Namely, there will be more of a push to downgrade Mongol units when people discover that those Yari Samurai will be running more than they are fighting...

In other words, altering morale will most certainly bring up new (or exaggerate old) unit balance issues.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Lord Aeon]

One more thing: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

I think that decreasing morale will cause further problems with units routing when being flanked by enemy units that don't pose a particularly dangerous threat, e.g. Kensai, BN...

Imagine being in a huge battle, then simply running BN to the side of your enemy and watch the cascade rout...

I don't know. I just think we oughtta start thinking about what OTHER consequences reducing morale might cause...



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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[TakeshidaSo]

People need to remember, when someone says SP and MP use different morale systems, that a lot of the SP battles they have seen use low honor units, that also have low inherent morale stats. This would be like using only H0 units in MP, and using only the weakest units. Also remember the fact that most Jap units the Mongols face are YS and SA. These two units are weaker than they were in STW. YS had its armor reduced from 3 to 2, making it the same as YA now. SA had its defense reduced from 0 to -1, making it the same as YA now. With these main units weakened, and morale raised so that units fight longer, is it really any wonder that SP appears to be different from MP morale? Why was STW's campaign so popular? It used the same low honor troops, and had a weaker overall morale system too. Maybe because the YS and SA were stronger units in STW, and maybe weakening these units, for MI, made the MI morale system be altered.

We have tried using H0 troops, in MI, to see if that made the game playable. The problem is that many options, like armor and weapon upgrades, and having H(-2)units, wouldnt be available. Also, many H0 units will very often fight to the death too. Many STW people use H0 units in large koku games, mixed in with their higher honor units. These options are no longer possible. Many people continue to play very low koku games in STW. It has always been very poplular for people to have battles with really crappy troops. This was really where most people saw whole army's rout. This popular type of game is no longer possible. A lot of people played teamgames where there was a very real danger of your ally causing you to rout, because your army wouldnt stand to see a dozen freindly units running past you. This made your team-timing critical to the overall success. Timing overall isnt so important anymore, a generals ability to schedule, and feel, the flow of events has been radically altered. The fact no one wants to argue about is; that MI's morale system was available, and sometimes used, within STW's existing system, but that the most popular lower honor areas of STW's morale sytem arent available within MI.

[Algesan]

Ok, just to be clear, instead of paying XXX for a H2 unit, you get a H0 unit for online play.

I don't like the chain routs that could be easily started by simply slamming a unit into the flank of another unit in the original SP. Now the units will stand long enough to allow corrective measures.

Since we have time for more playing before any change will be made, why not test it the way I suggested. Build the armies, drop all honor by 2 and then see if the armies perform in a manner that the people who want the change find preferable.

Even if this is not considered acceptable, since it removes the option of lowering honor to stretch koku, it still gives everyone a datapoint to build from for a morale slider, high/mdm/low morale buttons and/or an overall morale tweak.

I don't like the concept of variable morale since it will open yet another debate on what is "honorable". Not that there aren't problems with what is fair or not in online play, but IMO most of those can be solved by allowing different kokus for attacker and defender.

[TakeshidaSo]

I dont understand what your saying, and you must not be understanding what I'm saying. I said we have tried to use the lowest honor settings in MI. That that leaves many options unavailable. That low honor troops still fight unreasonably long. That morale is still too high. You are mentioning the morale of SP STW campaign games being too low. This likely means low honor units that are also low moraled. My point was for comparisons between SP and MP, MI and STW to take into account the type of units being considered. You want other people to try to live within a system your comfortable with, but wont debate the issues; that the options that have been removed are still very popular online, and that the options that MI standardizes were available before but never very popular. There was a difference between very high honor units before, but now they become maxed out much earlier. You also didnt discuss the possibility that altering YS and SA, and then relying on SP campaigns to establish a new morale system balance, a balance that was no doubt dramatically effected by these changes, was a great error. The introduction of a new Mongol army, weakening Japanese units, and then trying to balance a new SP campaign is the obvious culprit here.

[Satake]

Algesan , like i stated in a different post , i've seen h0 cav archers with no upgrades fight till the last man against 2 light mongol cav , coming from front and back. That's rediculous. If in old STW u would have a h0 cav archer , it would waver at close enemy contact , and break if they take more than 4 casualties in the enemy charge. Simple. Change morale and be a good company ea , and u can have my money for the x-pack.. or should i say , our enhanced patch 1.13 with new bugs!

[Algesan]

Ok, then a reduction to H0 is not enough and the tweak has to go further than that for online play. However, you still want SP campaign balance and it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see the morale drop a little there. I know there is a problem. I've been on the winning side twice in team battles simply because my H3/4 units stood longer than they should have. The other side tried to take me out and could not before my allies slammed into them. I've lost a couple of battles because even though I brought the hammer down on a flank, the units there stood so long it was a wasted effort.

What I'm trying to do is help find a point where most players can accept the morale level. I don't mind helping with the effort when I am available online, but I don't have a steady schedule of times I play. If H0 is not enough, then perhaps going into the troopstats.txt and dropping all the unit honor bonuses down one, fighting battles, discussing results, rinsing and repeating until an acceptable level is found.

It also might be that -X will work for Japanese games but -Y is better for Mongol games. There is no way to know until it gets tested.

[DoCToR]

Nope, in SP campaign i have been using mainly H3-H4 troops and found very little difference to the original STW morale system... keep morale the same regarding SP campaign (sengoku period btw) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Multiplayer and/or Custom games may be different though especially as the Mongols get involved!! DUnno yet as haven't really tried and tested that much with them...

DOC

[Tankdogg123]

I think the moral in sp is fine.

As for multiplayer on-line it's a disgrace I would rather see the old honour system back. The old shogun was about tactics now it is just unit vs unit the best unit wins no tactics what so ever.
GET THE MORALE BACK TO WHAT IT WAS!!!!!!

[Whitey]

I'll tell you the problem, I lowered the Muskets honour and effectivness all I could in the game (Hon0) and in the files, not one unit runs until its about 40% strength...try the same test with the old morale system on Hon0...its not just in the files, they havn't left a low enough morale base!!!

[MagyarKhans Cham]

WE DRIFT OFF THE SUBJECT

ONLY A MORALE SETTING CAN SATISFY US ALL

SP and MP

[TakeshidaSo]

I dont think anyone drifted off the subject here. In fact, it seems maybe the SP and MP may have different morale systems in MI. This is a bigger problem than people judging things inaccurately. If CA only increased online morale, then the fix is to just change it back. The MORALE, FATIGUE, and 99,999 koku settings will provide us with all the options we need, just like they always have.

[RageMonsta]

I havent read all the stuff..i just saw big letters saying drifting off....ok then

Hmmmm I like the idea that units dont rout when they are no longer holding the generals hand........needed for the ninja and ambushes etc.

But I dont like the way units are fighting to the last 2 maybe 3 men against multi attacking units......

I know the mongols are fantasy...but this is mad....180 men charge into 5 waving spears and swords...some on damn big horses...and they stay and fight.....cobblers!

We need a mix......a slight adjustment....we need mongol vs mongol also.....we need a patch.......people get on this now....people power.

My answer is MEDIUM Magyar....

sorry for the state of this post I need sleep lol..(or are they always like this?)

[Algesan]

Actually, Cham may be right, the easiest way from a balance point would be a slider or a way to set a morale bonus, positive (LOL) or negative in MP that will display in the game info. Then players could test and adjust depending on the situation. We need to find out from Target & Co. if something like that is doable reasonably.

If not, then we are looking at testing with modified troopstats until we find a balance factor they can hardcode in.

[Puzz3D]

I conducted a test online today of Mongol vs Japanese on the green map at 5000 koku with morale reduced on all units by 4 points by editing TroopStats. First TosaInu and Kraellin fought while I watched, and then I fought Kraellin while TosaInu watched, and then I fought TosaInu while Kraellin watched.

In general, routing did happen sooner to units. Instead of routing at 5 men or less, units were typically routing at 10 to 15 men left. In my battle with Kraellin, my last unit was a 30 man Nag cav. It wavered and routed immediately after contacting 1 of Kraellins's units with 2 others nearby. This -4 morale setting is definitely part way between the old STW setting and the new WE/MI setting. You could still use units independently without fear of them routing without fighting, but, since routing occurred sooner, the victorious unit was freed up sooner, and able to be redirected that much quicker.

There was no mass army routing except right near the end of the last battle when I charged several xbow units right behind the front line. I would estimate the rout occured at about 70% total losses of the enemy army. Since the game did not immediately end, I can't be sure. The final count was Mongols 901 kills and 595 losses.

One thing of note is that my MHC taisho was reduced to one man, the taisho, who withstood a terrific onslaught. That taisho's honor had risen from it's initial H1 to H4 by virtue of the MHC unit getting 119 kills. The taisho himself had 13 kills. This effect was seen in the old STW once in a while, but it could become quite common in the new game with certain very strong units being able to rack up high kills. A unit like that can become almost invincible in melee since it's very strong to begin with.

Kraellin had the impression that the Mongol advantage was more apparent at the reduced morale setting. This may be because their fast cav is more active since it can free itself of engagements sooner, and possibly better avoid being trapped by YS.

I did feel an increased sense of ungency to respond to the aid of a loosing unit because it was not going to hold out as long now. Maybe Krae annd Tosa will post to give their impression of the tests.

I would estimate that this -4 morale setting puts the game at about 2 honor points above the old game. I think I can get an exact measure on this, but I haven't had the time to run the necessary tests.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 08-26-2001).]

[TakeshidaSo]

If there is a different morale system for SP and MP, then morale should go back to what it was in STW. The option to raise honor to 9, in addition to armor, weapons, fatigue, and morale, gives us all the options we need to strengthen units. If we want to test to see what STW's morale is then we can use scientific approaches with units that exist only in both STW and MI. If we want to find out if Mongol units have a hidden combat modifier over Jap units, then we can modify similarly units, like the KSP\YS, or MLC\CA, to have the same unit statistics.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

Monsta u werent asked to choose between the option, we just need a slidebar like option button

BTW why dont we have info from Hyping Target and friend sto help us out. A next step after listening to the Cry of Help is to help...

[Magyar Khan]

just wonedrinmg where my buddy HT (Hyping Targe) is?

[Lord Aeon]

"Kraellin had the impression that the Mongol advantage was more apparent at the reduced morale setting. This may be because their fast cav is more active since it can free itself of engagements sooner, and possibly better avoid being trapped by YS."

LOL, i hate to say i toldya so...
But reducing morale will most definitely exaggerate the effectiveness of Mongol units; since they are - generally speaking - inherently better, their Japanese counterparts will rout more quickly and therefore put up much less of a fight.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Khan7]

Well, Lord Aeon, you would be right, EXCEPT:

Morale was only modified in MP!

SP Campaigns, the main area in which the Mongols are going to be played, has the same morale as ever!

So LOL, I BET you hate to say "I toldya so"!!

[hehe, s'all good, just jokin around]

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Khan7

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i agree that some momngol units stats have to be tempered in short

- skirmishers less effective with low morale
- mlcav less strong than jhcav, more arrows
- mhcav same strong as jap strongest cav

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i just returned to the old shogun, i still believe it is brilliantly done...

[Erado San]

Well, let's take it one issue at a time. Just sent an interesting proposal to CA about the patch. Wonder how they'll respond to it.

If we could get an option to set the Morale to several presets, like Cham suggests, we'd find out soon enough whether the Mongols are too heavy or not. Only one way to find out.

I agree Magy. For the online game good old STW is more interesting. They simply HAVE to adjust things in a patch otherwise Mongol online is doomed. Maybe new players won't agree, but for the old guard it just isn't interesting. Too bad about the good features in Mongols, of which there are plenty. I can't believe they let one issue (Morale) play such an important and destructive role.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i am wondering if the jamma testers were sleeping on this

[DragonCat]

Maggy,

Clarification, I was for a slight adjustment, not for keeping the current morale.

As I posted in another thread a moment ago- I really disliked how brittle the old game was. I could not do feints, sacrifices, baiting and other gambits (especially with cavalry) because the risk of routing the unit being used and then having that rout my entire army was too likely.

I love the new system because I can finally charge cavalry at guns from the flank and pull them back out before engagement without them routing because they turned their rear to their opponent (and then watch the rest of my army start breaking apart). Such a maneuver then gives me a chace to charge up the hill after his army while the gunners or other missle units are disarrayed.

I must also say, I have still been able to rout units (and have had my own units rout - in fact my entire army) in the new system. So I don't agree that it is as stiff as some are imlying.

I do allow that there is a bit too much stiffness to morale now-- but I'll take the current over the old any day for the reasons stated- I have MORE options now than before. The old STW had become simply a rout-fest. Take a look at people's strategies on different sites- it seems to be all about routing- as the ONLY way to win.

Best would be some intermediate that solved both our issues. However, I think your options menu is a good one and something that would be simple to implement and also easy to control online and agree with you that it may be our best hope.



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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

[Tangent]

Well, at the risk of being a contrarian...I don't think that we should have a slider bar for morale.

I will repeat what I have said in previous posts: the DECISIVE impact on combat that morale has at the DEFAULT settings of STW is what distinguishes this game from most computer games that claim to be about warfare. Let's get serious here; most other computer "wargames" are junk.

If CA buys into the idea that their primary customers want to play ala Age of Empires or Blizzard titles, then this game will end up just like those games. Putting a slider bar will simply encourage those players to play in that style rather than taking on the challenge of learning to use the morale system. Furthermore, a slider bar will simply further divide the online community between newbies who purchased WE/MI not knowing what they missed and dwindling number of old STW players. This means that the percentage of battles with realistic morale will be lower than in the past, leading to fewer playing opportunites for those who want to play with morale. It is better for the overall future of the game system to force newbies who do not want to play with morale to go to the extra effort of announcing that they have turned it off, or to force them to play in high koku battles.

Sometimes it is not the best idea to keep everyone happy. This is one of those times.

-Tangent

P.S. The morale is the SP game is just as broken as it is in the MP game. The casualty rates are too high in both forms of play.

[Lord Aeon]

I'm not quite sure i follow your logic here. The whole point of a slider would be that you could play the game how you want with other like-minded people, and not be forced into playing in such a way that the community is divided, much as it is right now. Are you saying that i should be forced to play using the old morale system 'because you said so and it's good for me'?

The way you've made your point comes off a little on the condescending side. I mean, really... i paid just as much money for this game as you did, and i have every right to be just as happy with it as you are. You strike me as the type of person in favor of sterilization and alcohol prohibition...

I'm sorry, but there are ways to make a point, but your post isn't one of the more influential ones. Instead of insinuating that all the pro-new-morale people are inferior to yourself, maybe you could show them how they would have more fun with the old morale system (which i presume they have all TRIED since most here, if not everyone, have played the original STW).

Just trying to help.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

"...You strike me as the type of person in favor of sterilization and alcohol prohibition..." was that remark necessary Lord Aeom.

I thought your point was well expressed without this extra touch of flaming. Please be carefull. Flaming is not welcome in the org forums.

Thank you in advance

[Lord Aeon]

My sincerest apologies. I didn't think that qualified as a flame. I am now so informed, and i want to go on record as saying that it wasn't my intention to flame.

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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Puzz3D]

Lord Aeon,

I see what Takshida is saying. In STW there are two morale options: on and off. Someone who does not want to play with morale as a factor limiting how he uses his units can turn morale off. When you go to join his game, you can see that morale is turned off. If you like playing with morale on, then you don't join that game. You have a choice. You do see people playing STW games with morale turned off.

In WE/MI, morale has been raised to the point where the game essentially plays like morale turned off. It is not completely off, but is now a minimal factor for consideration in a battle. So now people can say "I play with morale turned on" instead of having to actively turn it off to get that kind of game. There is basically no choice now. Morale on and morale off are essentially the same game in WE/MI.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Otokomi Innue]

I have played and love STW for more than a year and now I am loving the xpack. Either way, I will and can adapt my style of play.

I just wish my routing troops would rout toward friendlies instead of into danger. This goes for the enemy too. It gets boring cutting off the enemy and waiting for them to rout right into your clutches.

By the way, here is a link to a post i started on this topic. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000201.html

And heres what it says:

If all of us in this forum were unfortunate YA getting ready to bolt in the face of charging Mongol HC, I think every single one of us would run straight into the highest concentration of friendly forces.
Conversely, would any of you follow me if I screamed in viceral terror, "nuts to this, let's get out of here and run over there toward that horde of KG and Skirmishers."

I doubt it.

It would be more realistic if wobbley kneed conscripts ran toward the friendly fold instead of toward the enemy.

It would also work well in terms of morale. I often send troops to help units that are waivering. If they rout toward the rescuing troops, they may be more easily rallied. It wouldn't matter if the morale were more delicate like the old STW, if numbers and strategy could keep the unwilling in line.

I think this kind of modification would add a little depth.


[This message has been edited by Otokomi Innue (edited 09-03-2001).]

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

OLD MORALE RULEZZZZ!!!

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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif

[Tangent]

"I'm not quite sure i follow your logic here. The whole point of a slider would be that you could play the game how you want with other like-minded people, and not be forced into playing in such a way that the community is divided, much as it is right now."

The law of unintended consequences applies.

The point is that the default settings will determine how the vast majority of players learn the game, thereby setting the standards for online play, including competitive play with the rating system. If the default setting is set away from having strong morale effects, then those who play with morale will be marginalized. For example, leading competitive players will have earned high ratings without playing with strong morale, making it even harder for the morale system to hold its place in competitive play. Every dollar being equal, the developers might even eventually decide that having a strong morale system is not worth the cost of supporting it.

Instead of seeing the morale rules marginalized, I prefer to marginalize play without strong morale. This is stated bluntly, but it reflects a simple fact. Given that default settings have to exist, there is no way to avoid marginalizing one set of play. The issue is which set of rules will be marginalized.

A slider bar will further disagreements among players, including those who wish to play with morale, as to what is the proper setting to play the game. Instead I think that it is reasonable to expect a game to set a standard for its players. This will make playing the game online less of a hassle when arranging opponents. If players want to play outside those standards, I am not opposed to their having the options for doing so, but it should be clear to others that they are playing in a non-standard way.

Finally, by glossing over the disagreements, the slider bar solution redirects players from discussing solutions for the problems underlying many of their differences, namely the issue of what does or does not work within the Total War morale system. Having many choices on morale settings will also make it harder to make specific suggestions for improving the Total War morale system in the future; there will not be an established basis for comparing and contrasting one's proposed fixes. All of this means that there will be less player feedback and therefore less development time spent on improving the morale system.

I know that everyone is honestly and sincerely trying to come up with a solution to the issues that divide us. While I am not opposed to gving options to players, I respectfully submit that this entire thread is going in the wrong direction.

"Are you saying that i should be forced to play using the old morale system 'because you said so and it's good for me'?"

Players should be forced to play using the old morale system (or something close to it) just as they are forced to learn the various interface controls, etc. At least they should at the start. This is not because I said so or because it is good for you. It is because the game purports itself to be about warfare.

"i paid just as much money for this game as you did, and i have every right to be just as happy with it as you are."

If we voted democratically with our dollars, then wargames would not exist and television would be a vast wasteland.

"I'm sorry, but there are ways to make a point, but your post isn't one of the more influential ones."

When the baby is about to be thrown out with the bathwater one is tempted to be blunt. I fear that we are on the verge of seeing destroyed the only attempt to put a decent morale system into a mass market title. Whether by intention or accident, WE/MI in its current form has already taken a step away from that commitment, but I hold out hope. However, I don't believe that I have been insulting.

"Instead of insinuating that all the pro-new-morale people are inferior to yourself,...."

I have made no such claim, nor have I inferred it.

Take two wargames that are identical in all respects but one has a well thought out morale system and the other does not. I respectfully submit that the one with the strong morale system is superior because at least it is trying to cover more of the underlying reality of battle.

We need to focus our thoughts on making all players happier by improving the morale system, not in pushing it aside. This means that we need to dicusss the morale system on a piece by piece basis.

"...maybe you could show them how they would have more fun with the old morale system (which i presume they have all TRIED since most here, if not everyone, have played the original STW).

It's about reading between the lines as a part of developing one's mental picture of the battlefield. While most good commanders learn how to "read the battlefield", Shogun is one of the few computer games to allow players to develop this sense as well (albeit in a more limited fashion than a real battlefield). Because the enemy's morale does not show itself on the screen to a player, one is required to learn the morale system by practice and experience. The morale system's options for flanking, surprise, exploiting the enemy's fatigue, and ultimately attacking the morale of the entire enemy army make for a far richer experience in learning how to play the game. Players who don't play with morale are missing a lot.

I have started a topic "Fixing the old Shogun: Total War morale system" in an effort to encourage players to dicuss what is right and wrong with the Total War morale system. I have used the old game as the basis for discussion because the morale system shows up more clearly in playing that game. I hope that others will feel free to express their opinions there.

-Tangent

[shingenmitch2]

AMEN Tangent --

Why do older players not take the "pro new morale" guys recommendations seriously?

Because most of them have never played the older version. They speak without knowing what the old game is like and about. So they have no true frame of reference to go on. And no, H0 troops in MI is not the same thing as old STW at 6,000 koku.

The old game modeled warfare better. PERIOD. And all the subtle things that Tangent talked about made it great.

I used to be frustrated with the mass routs in the old game, but it reflects the reality of war much closer. In ancient battles most casualties occured in the "pursuit" phase, after the battle was already decided. What decided the battle? One generals troops were getting hit too hard, or saw enemies free and clear to their flank or behind them and decided to run. Even the vaunted Samurai fled from battle (read accounts, or see the movie RAN to get an idea)

It takes time to master the morale affects in STW, time that frustrates newbies, but is what make the game forever playable.


PS the morale mod is a great thing, but as pointed out earlier, what affect does this have on the Kensai and Battlefield Ninja?

MAGYAR -- a slider is great idea, and modifying the Mongols as us state seems smart. Guns should have range shortened, instead of Archers lengthened.

PSS - the guy who talked about Cav charges into musket flanks and having them rout -- you should try the Cav Archer on skirmish (unfortunately all troops should have this option) they can charge, run, flee, and recover. OR you needed to honor up your Yari Cav more. (H6-7)

[TakeshidaSo]

There is plenty of koku to increase morale, Weapons, and Armor. You can turn off Morale, and Fatigue. Online and campaign battles, use different values and honor, for default units now.

---------------------------------------------

Petition for MI improvements.

1). MORALE>

Morale is increased by 2 points for each honor upgrade. MI's has increased morale by 12 pts. Thats a morale increase equivalent to 6 honor upgrades, which is nearly triple that of a units base cost. This increase was to a system where 18 pts. is considered impetuous, and the range was from -4 morale for YA, to +8 morale for WM, and ND. For every 2 honor upgrades morale is raised by 4 pts., and the units cost is almost doubled (96%). Campaign costs, and base unit stats, are for H0 units. The cost of custom and online units is for an H2 unit, and so they have +4 to morale, and double the value of campaign units. The incongruous pricing suggests a change, and the campaigns would be challenging with H2 units.

Solution:
Make the default campaign unit an H2 unit, and set the default morale in MI back 12 points.
Alternate:
Set the custom, and online default to H0, and lower MI morale settings by 8 pts.


[This message has been edited by TakeshidaSo (edited 09-04-2001).]

[Lord Aeon]

Quote Originally posted by shingenmitch2:
AMEN Tangent --

Why do older players not take the "pro new morale" guys recommendations seriously?

Because most of them have never played the older version. They speak without knowing what the old game is like and about. So they have no true frame of reference to go on. [/QUOTE]

All i will say about this is that you should consider that you may be wrong. It has been my experience that the vast majority of people who own MI right now owned the original STW as well. Let me point out that this sort of separatist attitude isn't going to help anything. And that was the point of my first post:

Even if is WASN'T the case that many of the pro-new-morale people are new to the game (which they most certainly aren't), the validity of their opinions are, and never will be, a function of how long they've owned the game or how well-received their ideas are by the condescending public.

Any assertion to the contrary is almost comically dismissive, and shows only that small minds do indeed reject new ideas wholesale, without concern for anything but that these new ideas won't be good for THEM... How? Read on.

In this case, the new idea (i.e. a morale slider) might infringe upon their own PERSONAL enjoyment of the game only in the sense that everyone else won't be doing what they say; so rather than introduce a situation where everyone would be able to enjoy the game (after all, isn't that the whole point? to have FUN!), they would rather everyone play like them and in so doing alienate a sizeable chunk of the MI gaming population.

Why it makes sense to some of you to forcibly deny people a basic enjoyment of something they paid for simply escapes me. Is it sadism? Is it a power trip on the "i've played this game longer than you" fallacy? Is it just that you don't like newcomers? Is it about preserving your little circle of online buddies?

I don't get it.
Oh, and BTW, i have owned the original STW almost since it was released.


------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[shingenmitch2]

Easy there Aeon...

I was simply making a point that most of the newbies don't know the old version and so are unable to fairly compare the versions.

That's a simple truth, nothing more.
--------------
You keep talking about having "more fun." It may not be your intention, but that kind of sounds like "I'm winning more now."

Just so there is no confusion, I have yet to lose on the MI, but I still prefer the older version.

It's been my experience with MI so far, that the good players continue to win, but that players who have crappy tactics & do militarily unsound actions, get less penalized for these stupid maneuvers.

-------------------------

I'm not for forcing anything down anyone's throat, but I would like the OPTION to play "oldstyle" with the MI troops.

With STW, you can ALWAYS play the MI style -- have armies w/ 20,000 koku each or turn morale off. Simple.

The problem is, the reverse doesn't work with MI. Those who like the old style can't get there without a stupid "bat" file that changes unit stats.

H0 armies don't act like or have the same flexibility as a 6,000 koku game in the old STW -- in those games I'd have some troops H4, some H2, some H0 -- and lots of flexibility choosing which ones get the honor. Morale then affects each unit differently. An MI game with all H0 troops loses that important flexibility.

[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 09-05-2001).]

[Lord Aeon]

Quote Originally posted by shingenmitch2:
I was simply making a point that most of the newbies don't know the old version and so are unable to fairly compare the versions.
[/QUOTE]

LOL, NO, you were making an assumption. The difference between an assumption and a "truth" isn't anything like a blurred line; it's a large brick wall (if you'll excuse the expression). If you can't see that, then i don't know what else to tell ya.

I am all FOR having an OPTION to play "old style"... you misunderstand my point. Saying that morale should be switched back to the "old style" without any sort of option to manipulate it (like Tangent is saying) is akin to saying "i deserve to enjoy this game more than you." And what's worse is you're saying "i deserve to enjoy this game more than you" because "i ASSUME that i've played it more than you."

And you know what happens when you ass-u-me... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

And just so you know, i get trounced just as well online now as i did in earlier times. But, unlike other people, i'm not going to cry and go away, or abandon the game, or any such thing. I prefer to get used to the new system (which is in place for a REASON, not the least of which is the fact that we ASKED for it, also that it prevents the cascade rout, that it's easier to separate and flank forces, that BN and Kensai don't automatically run when faced with the enemy, etc.).

And please don't mistake my direct writing style for anger. I just don't understand the argument that an option to play as you want isn't a good idea. That's all. So you don't need to try and out-mature me with comments like "easy there" and other such stuff. Just read what i wrote. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[TakeshidaSo]

Didnt he just say that MI morale is contained within STW already? You had and will continue to have the option to boost morale as much as you like. Focus on the fact that whether they put morale all the way back or not, no one will prevent higher morale being allowed.

It seems fairly clear that what is being lost is at the lower end of the morale scale; not only the flexibility with 6000 koku games(like mitch points out), but also the very popular lowered koku game. Campaign and online units use different default honor and koku values now. That means the lowest morale option possible, would give us the greatest range of choice.

[Lord Aeon]

Once again, i find myself having to point out what should be obvious. That is: any solution to a problem should take into account and solve for potential problems that the solution itself might cause. Good forward thinking is about doing something ONCE the right way.

What i'm getting at is that reduction to the old morale will cause some other problems. It's inevitable. The balance between Mongol and Japanese units will be compromised, and units like BN and Kensai that are designed to operate separately from the main force will be prone to rout. The cascade rout, which still exists, will come back full force. Ashigaru Crossbowmen? They'll likely not even see combat since they'll be running at the start of the battle.

No, i think it isn't as simple as "i know we asked for it to be changed but now we want it changed back." There have been other changes to the game and new features added that will be impacted by any additional changes, most especially a fundemantal change to the combat system.

------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."

[Tangent]

If one reads carefully what Shingenmitch2 wrote it will be apparent that he actually disagrees with me on an important issue. He is in favor of a morale slider.

If one reads carefully what I have said, I am opposed to a morale slider for several reasons but I am not opposed to giving players options regarding morale. I happen to think that those options already exist.

My concerns come partly from what I believe is a realistic fear that the STW community and developers will move away from striving for a minimum acceptable degree of fidelity with history for the sake of providing more people a fun experience. One need only look at the decisions regarding WE/MI and the patches to see that there are strong economic forces in that direction already. After all, most game players do not like to play wargames at all, why not try to make most of them happy? If minimum historicity is lost, it will be regrettable because Total War is just about the only mass market wargame of its kind. A loss of minimal historicity would mean that the public is deprived of the opportunity to play something close to a real wargame. If a strong morale system is not the default then they are not likely to ever try using it. This will be a further pity because it is unlikely that a realistic morale system will ever be as easy and transparent to play as it is in Total War. Because of the underlying demographics, I believe that forcing players to play with a morale system at the start will maximize the number of players who end up playing with morale.

I also fear that the desire to create fun for more people has already reached the point that my opportunities for play will be marginalized. If something close to the original morale settings is not restored as the default, I fully expect that sooner or later I will be driven away from playing the game. This is not some kind of puerile ultimatum on my part; I expect to run out of like-minded opponents. Leading competitive player ratings will be earned without using strong morale and more players will assume that online play does not use strong morale. This is already happening. The fact that a morale slider would give all players a choice does not change the fact that I will have extra burdens placed upon me in persuading others to play with strong morale. As the player feedback comes in from a majority of players who have not been exposed to a strong morale system, then less development time will be spent on improving the morale system. CA can then say to themselves "we don't need to worry about fixing the morale system because those who use it can tweak it by using dial-a-morale." This will be regardless of whether or not the morale system needs to be fixed. Throw in the EA/CA marketing machine and my task will probably become hopeless. I prefer to have EA/CA on my side at the beginning, putting their energies into persuading new players to play with a strong morale system. If they aren't on my side now then I don't think that EA/CA will be on my side at the end.

All wargame designs involve compromises between playability and historicity. I understand and accept this fact. Shall I list the compromises to historicity that I have already accepted in STW for the sake of broadening the player base? Shall I list the additional compromises to historicity that I have already accepted for that same purpose in WE/MI? Morale is the crucial distinction between Total War and other 3D real time games; almost everything else in the game can be found elsewhere. If that distinction is lost, just where am I supposed to go? I prefer not to take the risk of losing that distinction.

As to the potential problems that might exist with the new units there are other ways to fix them than by destroying the morale system.

And, yes, I do have the right to complain about a proposal for the sole reason that it might threaten the way that I alone want to play the game. So does everyone else.

For those in favor of a morale slider, I have a question to ask:

What should be the default setting of the slider?

[Erado San]

Wow, what a useless exchange of posts betweem people who seem to agree... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

No Slider. That will be virtually impossible to control online.

A few separate and fixed values. Say 3:

1 - Old STW
2 - In between value
3 - New WE.

What more could anybosy possibly need? The option to set the morale boost with a precision of 0.1?

By the way, let's jsut hope we get anything with the patch. I'm an old timer, much in favor of the old values. But who the heck am I to say what's right or wrong? Or anybody else? Or even the developers? Everybody should be able to enjoy this game. Good tacticians (both oldies and newbies) should be able to choose the more challanging old STW style. Bad tacticians (again, both aoldies and newbies) should have the option to play the easier new style.

As long as anybody gets out of it what makes his pants sweat (or hers... of course), that's what matters.

[Tangent]

Well, if the options on morale are put into the game, here is to hoping that I am wrong that old style morale play will be marginalized.

I wish that I had more hope on that score.

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

My first choice was a slider bar but if it's to complicated or impossible to use, these 3 morale options (New, old,in Between) seem good to me.

As important (with all the discussion about morale, these 2 issues seem to have been pushed aside) the auto-rout bug and guns firing through friendly units and hills and such, should be on top of the list for a patch for MP.

[shingenmitch2]

Erado San http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

That essentially IS a slider -- only with 3 settings as opposed to a full continuum. I'm cool with that. (actually maybe should be a 4th --morale off)

Host sets value,
have it displayed for all,
any who join get that setting.

[TakeshidaSo]

You can duplicate MI morale, using STW units, by raising Honor six levels. That means using 20,000 STW koku, instead of 5,000 MI koku. The slider already exists, like it or not. Although the Morale setting is useless in MI, because morale is off long before it gets to 99,999 koku.

You can adjust the default campaign, and online, unit prices and Honor. CA either tripled, or quadrupled, the base honor. Any increase of the base honor, is removing our range of options,(i.e., slider). That completely eliminates the possibility of playing with lower honor units.

[shingenmitch2]

Tru enough. Point was well made, Tak.

[ELITEofGAZOZ]

[Tangent]

I also regard having 2 or 3 optional items to be a slider.

Again, I ask the question:

What should be the default morale setting of the game?

[TakeshidaSo]

A STW YA with 6 Honor upgrades would cost 753 koku.
It would get 3 attack, and defense increases, plus 12 morale.
Melee.2.Defense.2.Armor.2.Morale.8.

A MI YA with 3 Weapon and Armor upgrades costs 246 koku.
It would recieve 3 attack, armor, and defense increases.
Melee.2.Defense.2.Armor.5.Morale.8.

These values are for campaign units, of course, because online units start with H2 units as defaults. But, its obvious, values have more than tripled.

A MI YS with one Honor upgrade would cost 280 koku.
It would recieve one melee increase, and 2 morale pts.
Melee.1.Defense.2.Armor.2.Morale.16.

The range of armor has increased from (1-5) to (1-Eight) , and you can add 3 armor, and defense pts. to a unit for 75% above base cost. Whereas 2 Honor increases would raise the cost 96% above base, and gives Melee 1 pt., Defense 1 pt., and morale 4 pts.

[Kraellin]

ya know, it occurs to me that we already had a slider in stw and that that's the real bitch in we/mi. there's no longer a slider for lower morale.

in stw, you could play low koku, 5k, higher, morale turned off...that WAS a slider, if ya stop to think about it. what the folks that dont like the we/mi are saying is simply that that slider no longer exists in enough variety and they simply want it back.

and i tend to agree. yeah, remarkable isnt it, cause i sorta liked the new system when it first came out. i could actually keep my men on the field :) but, after listening to both sides of this issue, it really is true that you could just restore the morale back like it was and you'd still have everything everyone wanted without a bunch of new slider bars and such. folks that like the new system could play higher koku games. very simple. folks that liked it the way it was could still play that way. also very simple.

the one thing that i would change would be per yuuki's and takeshida's suggestion of rather than putting it back exactly the way it was, i'd make the default units h0, rather than h2, and drop the morale by 8 points, not 12. effectively this does drop it 12, since going h2 to h0 drops morale by 4 points. this is the simplest, sanest way to allow everyone what they want. yes, it will unbalance the mongol game, but we can fix that as a separate issue.

lowering the morale as per above shld also get rid of the new ashi/gun rush army that seems to be quite popular now. we all know that if you drop ashi morale by 12 points, those boys are going to head for the hills quite quickly push come to shove. bye-bye new rush army :)

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[TakeshidaSo]

Why dont you ever apologize?

I tested YuukiStats (stat10.bat). I found it much more enjoyable. STAT10 is similar to my own ideas, and I could tell the adjustments helped.

I used 11 H0 Mongol units (2500 koku), against various 12-16 unit Jap armies (5000), in normal level custom games. Not exactly the best test, for the range adjustments study, but I could see the Mongols had been weakened.