Finally - a good use for an ally!! And a morale question.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

I (Takeda)attacked the Vesugi, and was suprised that my ally, Hojo, sent in an army as well. The text said he "should support" my attack. Well, not being sure what the AI was gonna do, I set up waiting to see if Hojo double crossed me. Instead, he marched off to attack Vesugi, and I figured that I should let him take the brunt of the damage. I did, and his forces did some light damage before routing. He did do really well attracting all those arrows LOL. When he routed, I was off to one side, and Vesugi pursued - giving me a clear shot at their rear quarter and flank. It was a very short battle from that point on.... Hojo lost alot, Vesugi lost more, and I lost hardly anything.

Now that is how you use an ally in battle! ROFL!!!

One note - when his army routed, it had no effect on the morale of my men. What are the thoughts on that? Should a routed ally have any affect on the morale of your troops? I can see an argument for and against on this one.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[JAG]

lol yes that is an advantage of alliances. . normally the armies they send to help r small tho. . . i don't think an ally routing should affect ut forces morale after all ur going to be at war withg them soon! lol http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Watch out for that. . . . . Dam too late!. . . the story of my life!

WarlordWarrior

[TakeshidaSo]

It's not always easy to get an ally who will take the brunt of the damage for you. Sometimes an ally will widely scatter his units so that you cant help but be entwined with some of them. There should definately be a negative effect from an ally.

Units only react to TWO routing friends MAX. So the cascade occurs naturally, not because so many friends rout, but because each one see's two nearby friends routing. If a unit is close enough to get a boost from a friends presence, then it's close enough to see it rout too.

The question of army boundaries is a touchy subject with some people. But without a negative effect from an ally, you could bypass morale affects by interspacing allied units.

I'd rather see them increase the radius of positive morale factors; like the CNC's presence, or friends on flanks and rear, and seeing enemy routs. Or, maybe to decrease the radius of negative modifiers.

[solypsist]

the STW:WE should have increased chances for allies dropping in to hlp, unfortuantely this also sometimes means fighting against two allied armies whose clans at war with you.
glad to see a FTW person.

[johnmcd]

I think negative effects should have a larger radius than positive effects as people are naturally more concerned about losing their head than anything else.

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

Soly got to disagree (with the "unfortunatly"). Yesterday in my 1580 sp campaign i got attacked by Oda and Takeda (2600 + ) in Shinano.

This was the most fun, tense, SP battle that i had since owning the game. A lost would have meant open season to plunder my high yealding koku and unprotected provinces.

[solypsist]

yes i do suppose the "unfortunate" part is subjective. i've also had a few memorable battles, especially when the "allies" turn on each other!

[Koga No Goshi]

Although I completely support and understand the reasoning behind the various negative morale modifiers in battle in STW, I agree that there should be more positive modifiers as well. I think one that should definitely be buffed up is if a unit is fighting an enemy face to face and perhaps the battle is going neck and neck or a little in the enemy's favor, a friendly unit coming from behind you through your lines and jumping into the fray (meaning, walking straight into the face to face fight, not flanking or rear attacking the enemy, I know there's already bonuses for that) should give the beleaguered guys who were mid-fight a big boost. I mean, I know I'd have second thoughts about running if I was in a stiff fight and a whole unit of friendly troops suddenly swarmed in and swelled the ranks. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Koga No Goshi]

One pipe dream I'd like to see in a patch for MI, but I really am not holding my breath on it, is a way to support ally AI attacks without being the primary attacker.

This is the way I propose it would work. You know how when you have shinobi in an enemy province, it will sometimes give you a message saying "Lord Nani-Nani is preparing to attack, the attack probably won't come until next year..."? Well, you should get those messages automatically about allies about mutually bordering provinces, and perhaps a "Will you send a force to join the attack?" query. This would also clear up the issue of who gets the province when you and an allied AI both conquer it, because as-is it seems 50/50 toss-up.



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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[TakeshidaSo]

1). TAISHO>
The CNC, (TAISHO) has too small a radius of effect. His standard would be seen, and have a positive effect, over a wider area.

Solution:
Increase the range of Taisho's morale effects.
Alternate:
Limit the effects of his death, to only those units that can see him at the time.

I like the way piling units into the back of other friends in melee is counterproductive. It tires out the second unit, and not many of it's men do any fighting. I think thats great. Thats one thing that keeps columns from being relevant. Morale also makes columns a dangerous formation, because if everyone is packed in closely, then that amplifies any routs. There is only so much room at the front for a man to swing a weapon.

[grapedog]

I definately think the generals death should have a smaller effect. I have found it way to easy to win an entire battle if I focus one or two units on the generals group. I send in one or two units at their general, when he finally starts to flee or dies everyone in his army starts to waiver. It's cool...but it makes it a little easy.

I've won very big battles on hard with me in a defensive position because their general got in the mix then lost most of his unit and ran. The rest of the army just needed another minute or two of deaths and then they took off. The small reserve forces that kept dropping in were no match for my entire army.

[Kraellin]

bsm,

getting back to your original statement about allies and routing/morale. i tend to agree that this is a difficult one to figure.

if an ally was in a fight and they were taking the brunt and were relatively far away from my units, i'd tend to say it would almost be a positive morale booster. my men would be going, glad it's them and not me. or maybe whew, glad the fighting is over there.

also the size of the allie's army might make a difference. if he had a small army, was taking the brunt and got routed, my guys might well say, well, he had a small army or boy, what weenies.

if the ally is right next to me, has a decent sized army and isnt all ashi troops, then i'd tend to say, hmmm, if the enemy can do that to them, then they can do that to us, which would be a morale loss.

so, i'd have to say that you'd have to really look at the circumstances before dropping or even raising morale. this would also apply to if the ally was beating the enemy but somewhat in reverse.

and as a side note, has anyone ever noticed there are no injuries in stw/we/mi? yer either dead or fighting. shld be some stuff that could be done there also. folks lying around with missing limbs and arrows stuck in their legs and crying out in pain are real morale killers. and what about dead horses but the rider survives?

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[TakeshidaSo]

Boy, talk about straying off from the original statement!

Dead bodies aren't good enough for you, huh? You now want maimed survivors, if you can call them that, and seperated remains liberally scattered around.

I agree that would make things more "realistic", which I still feel is a very fine word. But, it would also make everyone turn off the dust, and smoke, to get a better look.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Kraellin,

Your thoughts were very close to mine on the morale issue, although I am gonna add one more scenario - as was the case with my attack on vesugi. The hojo came in with an army roughly the same size as the vesugi - mine was larger than vesugi by roughly 50%. I parked my units about 3-4 map "squares" away - so I had a good view and was able to take advantage of any opportunities. My thoughts are that since hojo got routed without doing much, my guys should have taken a neutral moral on it - they were wussies that got out-manuevered and paid the price. On the other hand, as soon as the vesugi presented their quarter flank, morale should skyrocket as in "geez these guys got target fixation - now lets teach em a valuable - and painful - lesson!". Now - once I charge and start making vesugi mincemeat, should my ally, even routed - get another morale check with a bonus since his pursuer is now being cut to ribbons by his ally?

And I agree - casualties do not count injured - but look at it this way - the "dead" are those that are dead or too injured to ever fight again - Lost and eye, leg, arm, etc. The "survivors" are those who either are unharmed or injured but will heal within the next 3 months (1 "season") and have returned to duty. While the graphics and engine could possibly be modified to detail these "injuries", it would require more horsepower on the pc, along with taking some attention off the tactical side. Now - as far as the infrastructure side, how about a "people" resource in each province - like in Lord of the Realms 2 - so when u raise units it affects loyalty....

Yes - I know - probably too detailed. ROFL.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Kraellin]

yup bsm,

i guess it's just a matter of how far you want your proximity alarms to go off. that unit with target fixation if it's a mile off doesnt really matter that much. even a half mile or a quarter mile, so you'd have to figure out at what distance you want your proximity thing to go off and must your units be moving towards them to intercept to get the boost.

yes, i know it gets kinda silly to try to move every blade of grass on the ground with animation and show all the severed heads and limbs and so on. at some point you do have to concede to the limitations of our connects and computers. it may even be that they do factor in the number of dead on the ground for morale and prolly is like you say, the 'dead' becomes an alias for 'cant fight any more'. no problemo, dude :)

and going back to your 'target fixation' remark reminded me of a game i played not too long ago. i had a unit of mongol light cav on skirmish being chased by some nd. so i sent a unit to chase the nd that were chasing my lcav. the enemy in turn sent a unit to chase my chaser and i again sent another to chase his chaser chasing my chaser...ok, i'm confused...it got to be a real comedy routine and i was just sitting there lmao. the cav just kept backing away, the nd kept chasing and there was a whole parade walking around the map chasing each other. quite a grin :) now THAT's target fixation :)

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[Chiyonofuji]

Yes,Koga No Goshi, I've had the same thoughts about allied armies. You should be able to agree on a time and place for an attack. That is what allies are for and what happens in reality. But sooner or later that ally has got to go!!

[johnmcd]

I understand why you might want a morale boost for folk coming to your aid, but really I think it should arrest the fall in your morale. You are still in deadly peril. I for one would find it cold comfort to know that even when I die horribly the guy that did it might not live either. I think that the soldiers should go into battle with a morale score which is eroded continuously, to greater and lesser extents, until either he or his foe routs.