Can you layer archers?

[De Bullseye]

Hello All.

I have a simple question: Is it possible to layer SA units without getting friendly-fire hits??

For instance, can I put a two-row-deep unit of SA on the front line and place another two-row-deep SA unit behind them (possibly with the back group having a higher elevation)?

Thanks.

DB

[clink]

If your on a steep up hill,facing up say, like in a siege,your archers will hit the archers in front of them.
If your archers are on 'fire at will'thier supposed to stop automaticaly ounce one of your infantry units engage.
Remember the closer the enemy units get to your archers,the flater the trajectury of your arrows,so yea youll nail a few friendlies if you dont compinsate.



[This message has been edited by clink (edited 09-14-2001).]

[solypsist]

layering your archer units works well if you're perched on a hill firing down on the enemy (you get better range and can continueto fire at the back units of the enemy while their front units engage your own melee troops).
i layer a lot, often in every battle and don't really get much in the way of friendly-fire casualties; i only really notice them when assaulting castles.

[Khan7]

It is in my opinion always better to simply put your archers in a fatter formation if you're having trouble fitting them into a given area. They work just as well and often better (due to the fatter shape of the volley), and the only drawback is that they are somewhat more vulnerable to enemy missle fire than if they were in a skinnier formation. But at least they aren't layered, in which case you have to worry both about the same increased vulnerability to ENEMY missle fire AND friendly fire (not to mention some unfun logistical/control problems).

Matt

[Gothmog]

what exactly does "fatter" mean?

[solypsist]

i think what khan7 means by "fatter" is that you cease training your archers so that they gain weight http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
but seriously, most people reform their archer units so that they are very long, the idea being that more archers firing means more enemy killed (archer and other missile units only fire from the front rank even though the ammo is removed as if everyone were shooting). by a "fatter" unit he means simply a unit that is less long; you lose a higher number of actual fired missiles, but can pack in more archer units side to side ratehr than stacked one behind the other. just an alternative if you're wrried about friendly fire. (i have my doubts about this technique, but to each his own)

[Vanya]

"Archers in single file cannot hit their fellow men in the head, for they are to his flanks only with only the enemy before him."
-- Sun Dum Tzu

[Murmandamus]

If you use the loose formation you are less prone to this. 3 deep and at a slight angle to the enemy so that all man have line of sight. Assuming you have the space on the field.

[Khan7]

I don't quite know where this perception that only the front rank can fire has come about, but I can testify from my own experiences that it doesn't matter what sort of formation archers are in-- if any individual archer has a shot, he will fire. If all of the individual archers have a shot, then they all will fire. I have never noticed a fat formation producing fewer casualties.. if anything my experience points to such formations actually producing MORE effective fire in many circumstances.

So please, if you have some source other than the famously faulty STW Manual, it would certainly be news to me that only the first rank ever fires. This would certainly not be the way the game was intended..

In fact, even gun units, which normally only fire out of the first rank and will only operate with the first 3 ranks except I suppose for ammo reserve purposes, will all fire at once if placed in 2 or 1 ranks.

Matt

[BSM_Skkzarg]

OK.. here is the deal with archers. The first 2 ranks have an "unimpeded" view and have no penalties to accuracy. If you are in a loose formation - the front 3 ranks have this view. Any other ranks suffer a penalty to their accuracy - as each archer shoots at a specific target. Now, all the men in the unit will fire, but the men in the back rows are more apt to hit men in the front rows... the farther back, the more "friendly" they will create. A unit on a steep hill can avoid this somewhat, but not entirely.

As for "stacking", if you place a range unit at the crest of a steep embankment, and another a good bit lower, you can avoid alot of arrows in the back.

It is advisable to string your men wide to avoid the hits, but keeping men packed tight does put alot of arrows in the air headed toward your target....

I suggest a balance - upgrade your archers with gold armor if your going to use deep formations - this lessens their vulnerability to fire, regardless of its source. Also keep your units intact as much as possible - combining high honor units - as this increases their accuracy and decreases their tendency to shoot their brethren. Until then, use long 2 and 3 rank formations when possible. Only group close if you need ALOT of firepower really quick, and be willing to lose men to get it.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Khan7]

I have never in my entire life seen an archer shoot a friendly archer in the *same unit*. I have no reason to believe that this is even possible. I can confidently state at least that the risk is so negligible that you could form your archers completely square and have no significant risk of friendly-fire within the unit.

Improper positioning of archer units in relation to other friendly units (e.g. stacking) is the only thing that I have ever observed to cause any kind of friendly fire casualties.

Matt

[solypsist]

as i mentioned before, try a custom battle with an assaulton an enemy castle. place a few ashi units inside the enemy castle (choose its units) so nothing is shooting back, and then get some archers for you to fire at the castle. you'll see the difference in friendlies between wider and more ranked units. the ashi inside won't ever come out so you don't have to worry about being charged, and can continue to set up archery experiments regarding kills/hits ratios for different setups. someone a long time ago even suggested using the arrowhead formation on archers to allow more archers to fire within a narrower corridor.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Got a test of ya Khan7. Am not trying to be a pain, but I see my archers shoot my own guys quite often. To test it, use easy difficulty with unlimited ammo so you dont have to worry about that stuff. Defend a bridge with 5 standard *h2-w0-a0* archer units - against 2 or 3 16 unit AI combatants. (any more than 3 and they start on your side of the river.) Config the AI teams to have normal 0 honor yari sams for their units - they make good baseline units. (If they get too close, use ashigaru instead)
Its best if you your defending a flat river crossing...
Anyway, line your units up - let em shoot the tar out of the bridge crossers. They will end up all routing away in the end, and with proper placement of your guys they will never get close enough to use a spear...
at the end of the battle - check and see how many men you lost..
If you string your men wide you likely lose around 5-10
if you go deep I have no clue what you will get but I would wager it would be a larger #.
So far, the ONLY reason I can see for this is being shot in the back... and as I dont stack my units, but rather string em in a line - the guys in the back of the unit are the only place the arrows could have come from.

Granted - this test is basically a set up to show you what I mean, but I see it often in battles that are not a setup. Unless these guys have a coronary - something kills em. With no hand to hand units getting close - and no ranged units behind em - the only explanation is friendly fire.

Anyone else see this often? Or am I just gifted with totally inept archers?



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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Hosakawa Tito]

I have to agree with soly and skkzarg on this.Set up some tests as soly described and check it out.Setting up your archers is going to depend on a lot of factors,terrain,opponent unit composition and number,weather,and number of units you have to defend your archers to name a few.
Your archer's effectiveness is determined by honor/skill rating,weather,terrain,and their line of site to the intended target.The optimum set up will be different in almost every battle,but being above the intended target with an excellent line of site for your archers would have to be a given.When your archer formation is more that two rows deep,the ones in the very back have to arch their shots over their comrades to hit the target.Obviously this will decrease their accuracy.The unit they target is also a factor.Charging cav are much more difficult to hit, because of their speed they can actually get under the flight of arrows,where as YS will take more hits because of their slow speed.The formation you put your archers in doesn't have to remain constant throughout the battle either.When defending with a smaller force than your opponent,I like spreading out my archers from a height advantage while the enemy approaches,giving my archers a better line of site and slowing the enemy's advance= more kills.When the enemy gets close enough to start flanking my archers,I close up their formation so my numerically smaller melee units can more easily defend them.The beauty of this game is that there is no single "right" way that will prevail all the time in every situation.Experimenting with tips from others,and incorporating them into your own strategies is what makes this game so enjoyable.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[Gothmog]

My castle assault experience told me that archers DID kill their comrades of the same unit.

[Khan7]

I got it to happen. It was hard, and it took a bit of innovation and trial and error, but I actually got one of my guys to get hit by one of his comrades in the same unit. I was so proud of myself :-P

Point being it's damned hard to do, IMO anywayz..

Matt

[Murmandamus]

Khan7, put the archer unit on a hill, the steeper the better, 4+ rows deep and have them fire uphill. You should get plenty of casualties then.

[Khan7]

All I know is that I was working with WE/MI, on a *VERY* steep hill, with my archers 6 rows deep. I absolutely *COULD NOT* get it to happen, then after 4 tries I put them on such a steep hill that only the front row and back row had a real LOS, and only they were firing, and was rewarded with 1 FF casualty for the whole battle.

Needless to say this is almost NEVER going to happen under normal circumstances, and is even rare in these extreme ones.

Matt

[Murmandamus]

Hmmm, must have been changed in the xpack. I'll have to try it.

[clink]

Didn't ya know? Staben your comrad in the back,was a quick way up the promotional ladder. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by clink (edited 09-17-2001).]