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Magyar Khan
12-07-2000, 09:08
since more and more people are gambling on the weather and using 3-6 muskets i would like to suggest to use the old balance rule more in the battle room.

the balance rule
BUY EVERY DIFFERENT UNIT AT LEAST ONCE, AND CHOOSE THE OTHER 5 FREELY

u will be able to have 6 muskets but u will notice that your army lacks the bodypower. u can buy 6 monks but it will not be a monkyrusharmy. but U cant buy 6 monks 4 muskets and so on.

Give it a thought, use it and u will see it is fun and will make u think harder how to move the units.

Zen Blade
12-07-2000, 11:52
I don't know about each unit once Kahn..... That could be about as unrealistic (I think) as the monk rushers...

how about a slight amendment to that...
at least one cav troop, one spear troop, one no-dachi, one naginata, one monk, one gun, one archer?? with the limit of no more than 4 units of one type (guns being one type)

The reason I disagree with your original thought Kahn is that one heavy cav, one yari, and one archer cav is rather expensive and smaller koku games will lose their variability...

however, I definitely agree with you that we should have some sort of personal selection rules. Although, fighting an all monk army isn't bad as long as you can get the guy for a 2 out of 3 fight sequence.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG

Tachikaze
12-07-2000, 14:11
Remember, Mr. Kahn likes his horsies.

The idea is only possible with 5000 or more koku. But I like the concept.

I also like to restrict myself to give myself a challenge and make me flexible. Lately, I have been playing SP with units chosen by the computer.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

Tenchimuyo
12-07-2000, 20:15
Sounds good, that'll bring in a greater variety and make the game more interesting.

Magyar Khan
12-07-2000, 20:22
the rule is designed for 5000 koku or more

for smaller amounts the rule is the same

just buy
fIRST: 1 of every unit till u reach kokulimit
TWO: if u got koku left after 11 units choose others freely

so if u have 1000 koku just buy 1 spear 1 ashi 1 musket 1 archer 1 monk (for example)
The wrong part in the first rule -for smaller armies) is "at least", it should be if allowed by koku at least....

An important aspect of the rule it that we all play with all units available in the game, it just give exciting games and u will see that u have a lot of variation to deal with

Idaho
12-07-2000, 21:15
Personally I never pick more than 4 of any one unit - I like to have a balanced force. I always have at least one cav and 3-5 mixed missiles, 2-4 spears and 3-5 assault troops. Occasionally I will have a Nag.. but I am restricted to attack these days.

COme to mention it - I haven't played for a week! I have become a little taken with MP3s.

DragonCat
12-08-2000, 01:37
While I greatly admire Maggy's intentions, to make more enjoyable games, I have to respectfully disagree with the process- at least to a degree.

I think within tournaments the idea of "balanced armies" could be a useful rule - with some more tweaking to be sure - but the idea is essentially a good one.

However, in general practice amonst the unwashed masses, a general should be ready for any situation AND should be trying out various strategies- however UN-balanced they may be. Its how you learn.

And I have paid the price for my opinion, believe me.

But there is so much more that we need to attend to besides "balanced armies", what we really need is a code of conduct that includes several articles that could be agreed to before any online battles. If your opponent won't agree to those articles, then don't play them. If they do agree and then break the articles, let's have a place to voice our grievances, naming names if need be.

As to the articles, I think "balanced armies" is only one of many issues. I have been surprised by people who have turned off morale and have huge ashiguru armies - if they don't run they are unbeatable (be sure to read the fine print before entering games), by people who have chosen winter, by people who escape when losing, by people who WON'T escape when you are playing without two of your team because they were dropped after the game began (a matter of honor really), etc. etc. etc.

When you put "balanced armies" against many of these other problems, it is the LEAST of my worries. Because I have played both against and WITH "un-balanced armies" I have learned to beat any of them. Sure I have lost to all of them at first, but ultimately they can all be beaten (even Maggy's Mongols http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ).

I guess ultimately what I am saying is that rather than proscribe what people can do, we should describe a fair environment that all can adhere to and still have the joy of trying the occasional monk rush, etc.

So let's agree on a "balanced army" standard, and then people should be encouraged to use it most of the time, but not "forced" to adhere to its dictates.

OK, I went on too long here, but I hope I've made my opinion clear.

One final thought: How would you "enforce" such a standard? The people I generally play with, its no problem anyway. When I go solo I know to expect any and everything and that's the risk I take.



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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

Slyspy
12-08-2000, 04:19
MK,
I often use 3-6 units of guns in larger games. I like them, they add variety, noise and smoke to a game. But there are 8 other units available and I fill these slots with a variety of other troops types to produce a balanced army which I can use. Obviously the guns are a dead weight in the rain, but I am perfectly able to play a sportsmanlike game in this situation (no ESCaping here) and capable of winning despite this handicap. I resent the implication that this is almost as bad a monk rushing (ie stretching the rules) since it clearly is not. As for your idea of restricting (or at least dictating) unit choice you can use that for idividual tournaments but not in open play thank you very much! You don't like it then tough, work round it. We all know you have the ability!

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

Hirosito
12-08-2000, 05:09
i wasn't around MP when monk rushing was big but what do you guys have against that???? I mean it a koku expensive strategy so the rusher will have less units than u do. bring a few muskeeters along and the problem is nearly solved. Or is it?

Btw i'm not actually defenfing monk rushing i'm just wondering why the good players on this forum are against it

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

Rob
12-08-2000, 05:44
As far as I'm concerned, it's a valid tactic. Monk rushing isn't too difficult to defeat if you do it properly. I have beaten monk rushes with ashigaru before (h7 ones http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ) and so I don't mind if my enemy monk-rushes me. It's not actually a very good tactic, it only really catches newbies out.

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Slyspy
12-08-2000, 06:15
Monk rushes are boring, thats all.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

Link(Micke)San
12-08-2000, 06:40
Hi Magy...
I have posted in Chain about this and the respond is good....
We had 2 good balanced games yesterday you and me....like in the old days (lol) a couple of months ago when we played the rule alot!
So guys give it a try it is much more fun and tactical this rule....and do it with 10k



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May the honour be with you all....
-LinkSan

Magyar Khan
12-08-2000, 07:31
a purpose of this thread is to make people more common with other type of battles then just rushes and/or muskets overloads.

reead dragoncat posts, every good thing said about it is in it

DragonCat
12-08-2000, 22:06
Thanks Maggy. Glad you and I are on the same footing here. Its just I don't want to miss out on any of our Mongol games, which balanced armies would preclude. (NOTE: Maggy and I had some WONDERFUL battles on Nagashima using mostly Cav with a few yari and wm thrown in. Try it, its VERY different).

Let me go on record as saying that 98% of the time I use a balanced army that stays pretty much the same no matter how many koku or what the battle. There are some small changes but essentially it is:

General and another Samurai Archer. 5 WM (usually with low honor - religious zealots ;-) ), 4 yari samurai (sometimes pumped up), a mix of cav -usually 1 cav archer - maybe up to three units depending on terrain, some guns usually 1-3 units - usually muskets unless low koku.

Occasionally I will mix in some no-daichi if I know I am attacking uphill. I never use Heavy Cav, almost never use naginata (I need to move too fast) and rarely use ashiguru.

This suits me and my style of play. I find all monks boring, but obviously I do like to have a lot on hand. I obviously like a lot of range units, but I mix it up. I have found all THREE types have uses. I like my general being a samurai archer, he takes care of himself and skirmishes away from trouble a lot, even though I bring him in close behind my other units in melee. The cav archers bear triple duty and are arguably the most versatile unit on the feild: scouts, artillery support, morale busters in charge situations on flanks and rear, and of course the ever popular rout them off the board.

Well, you can tell I am home sick today, rambling on too long. Flu shot hit me hard, but on the whole, better than the full case I would get later anyway http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif



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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."