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TakeshidaSo
09-05-2001, 05:11
Articles of Petition
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1). MORALE>

Morale is increased by 2 points for each honor upgrade. MI has increased morale by 12 pts. Thats a morale increase equivalent to 6 honor upgrades, which is nearly triple that of a units base cost. This increase was to a system where 18 pts. is considered impetuous, and the range was from -4 morale for YA, to +8 morale for WM, and ND. For every 2 honor upgrades morale is raised by 4 pts., and the units cost is almost doubled (96%). Campaign costs, and base unit stats, are for H0 units. The cost of custom and online units is for an H2 unit, and so they have +4 to morale, and double the value of campaign units.

Solution:
Make the default campaign unit an H2 unit, and set the default morale in MI back 12 points.
Alternate:
Set the custom, and online default to H0, and lower MI morale settings by 8 pts.

2). F1 BUTTON>

Since custom and online units start with H2, they are supposed to have a 1 pt. increase to attack, over their base stats. It takes 1 Honor upgrade, at 40% over the units base cost, to add one pt. to attack bonus, although it cant be verified with the F1 key. With 2 Weapon upgrades, for 44% over the units base cost, two attack bonus's are shown, but none are shown for added Honor.

Solution:
Show the correct Attack bonus number.
Alternate:
Show the units morale bonus instead.

3). UPGRADES>

Since custom and online units start with H2, they already have a 1 pt. increase to defense, over their base stats. It takes 2 Honor upgrades, at 96% over the base units cost, to add one pt. to defense. Armor upgrades add 1 pt. to defense, and armor. Armor upgrades can add 3 pts. to defense, at a cost of 75% over the base, and also add 3 pts. more armor protection than was even possible in STW. Honor upgrades do not improve armor, just defense. Raised by 60%, the highest armor is now 8. Raised by 33%, the maximum defense is 9.

Solution:
Double the cost of Weapon and Armor upgrades.
Alternate:
Double the cost of Armor upgrades.

4). UNIT BALANCE>

4A). JHC(600 koku) aren't competitive with; MHC(600 koku), MLC (500 koku), WM (500 koku), JYC (475 koku), or JNC (450 koku). Compared to JYC, MHC has 2 more melee pts., 3 more armor and defense pts., and 6 more morale pts., but only costs 25% more. If JYC added 2 Weapon, one Armor, and one Honor upgrade, at their present costs, for a total of 960 koku, it still would not compete with the MHC.

Solution:
Increase JHC Honor to 8, and melee to 3. Increase JYC armor to 4. Reduce MHC melee to 3. Reduce MLC armor to 3.
Alternate:
Reduce cost of JHC to 500, increase the cost of MHC to 700, and MLC to 600.

4B). SA have 1 pt. less defense than they did in STW. The muskets value is increased because of being able to fire in the rain, and thru walls and hills. KSK can easily destroy SA and costs only 25% more. A KSK can easily destroy a NAG, or JHC; the power of this unit is not reflective of the real destructive potential of Javelin, or even pilum armed troops.

Solution:
Increase SA defense to 0. Reduce KSK armor to 4, and it's killing-power by half. Stop guns firing thru hills and in the rain.
Alternate:
Reduce cost of SA to 250, increase the cost of KSK to 450, and increase the cost of guns by 40% each.

4C). It may be that play balance, relative to Mongol vs. Hojo strength, wont be entirely solved with these few changes, even if every option were employed. It may be that modified troopstats will be needed to further even the odds.

Solution:
Allow selections of preset troopstats options for custom, online, and campaign battles.
Alternate:
Allow selections of preset troopstats options for custom, and online battles.

5). REINFORCEMENT>
They have improved this area from cycling reinforcements, to allowing reinforcements to enter the map safely. It allows for KOTH games, and the AI makes better use of reinforcements than it used to. Secondary forces should be able to be employed strategically.

Solution:
Let units be assigned as detached reinforcements, and let all secondary forces choose entry areas.
Alternate:
Allow for a "safe" reinforcement option, such as STW's approach, or a "friendly" mapside entry.

6). ROUTERS>
If a routing unit moves a set distance from enemy units, much like skirmish formation instructs missile units now, and then towards it's rout area, it attempts to retreat safely. If it cant move away from two equal distance enemy, it should move towards its rout area as it currently does.

Solution:
Instruct routing units to follow skirmisher type reactions to the proximity of enemy units.
Alternate:
Instruct routing unit that it's rout area is the nearest map edge.

7). MONGOL RESTRICTIONS>
Allowing for Mongol, and Hojo infighting, would avoid any unit imbalances that exist between the Mongols and the Japanese. This infighting occurs in the SP campaigns, because of ronin, and bribed mongol armies. This can also happen in online games, because of buggy behavior.

Solution:
Remove the restriction, and provide alternative player colors.
Alternate:
Provide alternative player colors.

Eight). COMBINED SERVER>
Combining the servers would promote the game, and its expansion. It would allow for the online community support to grow, instead of being choked to death because it's divided. New online players may find they are alone in MI's server.

Solution:
Combine the ports of the server.
Alternate:
Create a new server to let both games into a single online area.

Nine). TIMER>
The "5-min." timer is an online cheat, and is incongruous with the honor\ranking competitive data base. Why have an honor\rank data base, if you wont protect it from this cheat.

Solution:
Make it known in lobby if timer is used.
Alternate:
Require MAX. timer for the season.

Ten). RANKING>
The chaos that this games Competitive\Rank database causes, is inherent to it. No matter how good an example you set, you wont establish decent order. It doesnt help for a player's Honor to be seen. The Competitive\Rank database has caused behavioral problems over the length of a year, and it has made people stop playing the game online. That's simply counter-productive. Rank only concerns a fraction of online players. You can easily decide what someone's worth for yourself.

Solution:
Remove the Competitive\Rank database.
Alternate:
Dont show player's Honor in the lobby.

Addendum.

Unit.Chrge.Melee.Defns.Armor.Honor
---------------------------------------------
SA.......2.......0......-1.......1.......0
AC.......0......-6......-3.......1.....-5
ND.......8.......6......-2.......1.......8
WM......4.......5.......2.......1.......8
NG.......4.......0.......6.......5.......4
YS.......0.......0.......2.......2.......2
YA.......0......-1.....-1.......2......-4
CA.......3.......1.......2.......3.......0
YC.......8.......2.......3.......3.......2
HC.......5.......2.......6.......5.......4
NC.......4.......5.......2.......4.......8
MHC.....6.......4.......4.......5.......8
MLC.....4.......2.......2.......4.......4
KG.......4.......2.......4.......4.......0
KSP.....0.......0.......1.......2......-1
KSK.....0.......0.......0.......5.......0
---------------------------------------------



[This message has been edited by TakeshidaSo (edited 09-06-2001).]

Otokomi Innue
09-05-2001, 06:08
Very productive post.

I would like to add that routing units should rout toward friendly troops (which may be what you mean by safety).

Also, It would be nice to pick which troops would fill in the empty slots when reinforcements arrive. For more info see http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002081.html

Well thought out, TakeshidaSo. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

DoCToR
09-05-2001, 06:40
Wow!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Hats off to you for that tremendous post TakeshidoSo...!!

Agree with all the issues you raised, now here's my tuppence worth in relation to single player gaming:

1) Current SP Sengoku campaign morale system must remain unaltered as it's perfect the way it stands...

2) The various SP campaigns must be made more DIFFICULT... the current expert level of difficulty should be the new normal with increasing levels of difficulty from there.

Possible solutions:
-Make the AI more aggressive towards the human player rather than other AI clans.
-Make the initial honour levels and starting tech level of AI clans higher!
-Make them try port to port invasions more often.

Keep this thread going the way it is because this is a superb overview (only hope the developers are taking this in!!) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


DOC

TakeshidaSo
09-07-2001, 00:59
Ten). RANKING>
The chaos that this games Competitive\Rank database causes, is inherent to it. No matter how good an example you set, you wont establish decent order. It doesnt help for a player's Honor to be seen. The Competitive\Rank database has caused behavioral problems over the length of a year, and it has made people stop playing the game online. That's simply counter-productive. Rank only concerns a fraction of online players. You can easily decide what someone's worth for yourself.

Solution:
Remove the Competitive\Rank database.
Alternate:
Dont show player's Honor in the lobby.



[This message has been edited by TakeshidaSo (edited 09-06-2001).]

TakeshidaSo
09-08-2001, 00:00
A STW YA with 6 Honor upgrades would cost 753 koku.
It would get 3 attack, and defense increases, plus 12 morale.
Melee.2.Defense.2.Armor.2.Morale.8.

A MI YA with 3 Weapon and Armor upgrades costs 246 koku.
It would recieve 3 attack, armor, and defense increases.
Melee.2.Defense.2.Armor.5.Morale.8.

These values are for campaign units, of course, because online units start with H2 units as defaults. But, its obvious, values have more than tripled.

A MI YS with one Honor upgrade would cost 280 koku.
It would recieve one melee increase, and 2 morale pts.
Melee.1.Defense.2.Armor.2.Morale.16.

The range of armor has increased from (1-5) to (1-Eight) , and you can add 3 armor, and defense pts. to a unit for 75% above base cost. Whereas 2 Honor increases would raise the cost 96% above base, and gives Melee 1 pt., Defense 1 pt., and morale 4 pts.

TakeshidaSo
09-09-2001, 01:29
STW had H0 units, that would barely stand their ground, to H9 units, who would almost fight to the last man. MI does not.

The problem is MI raised the morale table, that ranged from -4 to 8, with a median unit morale of 2, by TWELVE points. Lowering morale used to be an option, and most games included some H0 troops. Increasing a units morale is just one way to counter natural negative modifiers.

1). CASCADE ROUT>
Units only react to TWO routing friends MAX. So the cascade occurs naturally, not because so many friends rout, but because each one see's two nearby friends routing. If a unit is close enough to get a boost from a friends presence, then it's close enough to see it rout too.

Solution:
Increase the radius of positive morale factors; like the CNC's presence, or friends on flanks and rear, and seeing enemy rout.
Alternate:
Decrease the radius of negative modifiers.

2). F1 BUTTON>
Of course, the F1 Button needs to show attack, and morale modifiers. The numbers arent where the real art is, but science and art merge in war. Player's should have the chance, to apply the science of the game.

Solution:
Fix the F1 screen features.
Alternate:
Remove the F1 screen option entirely.

Hertston
09-09-2001, 04:50
Excellent work, TakeshidaSo

Happy to sign http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

TakeshidaSo
09-10-2001, 00:03
1). TAISHO>
The CNC, (TAISHO) has too small a radius of effect. His standard would be seen, and have a positive effect, over a wider area.
Solution:
Increase the range of the Taisho's positive morale influence.
Alternate:
Limit the negative effects of his death to only those that could see him, with his currently small radius.

TakeshidaSo
09-10-2001, 04:16
REINFORCEMENTS
A lot of people are annoyed by the new reinforcements approach. You cant detach units, to act as reinforcements, and reinforcements wont arrive where you want them to anyway.

It's a SP issue, related to the strategy of attrition, and a MP one, as far as KOTH games. It would be good for both SP and MP, if you could tell reinforcements where to arrive. It would help both, SP and MP games, if you could detach forces. It would help MP games, if you could buy more than 16 units, and detach forces.

ROUTERS
If routing units moved toward the nearest mapedge, they would still move thru enemy units, if the enemy were between them and the edge. If they behaved like a skirmisher, while they remain routed, then they could rout more safely. They obviously dont rout logically now, and they do have to rout in some direction.

The question you must answer first, is how should routers behave, while they are routing. If your satisfied that they are acting like they want to survive, then I will disagree. If you think that CA\DT should not be asked to allow routers to behave like skirmishers already do, then I would also strongly disagree.

[This message has been edited by TakeshidaSo (edited 09-09-2001).]

TakeshidaSo
09-20-2001, 02:52
11). TAISHO>
The CNC, (TAISHO) has too small a radius of effect. His standard would be seen, and have a positive effect, over a wider area. The CNC cannot directly challenge his opponent to face to face combat, which would require strong CNC units.

Solution:
Increase the range of the Taisho's positive morale influence.
Allow for Taisho challenges. If a challenge is refused, the Taisho loses his positive effect on his troops.
Alternate:
Limit the negative effects of his death to only those that could see him, with his current radius.


Results (total votes = 3):
Increase the commander's radius. 3 / 100.0%

Limit the radius of his death's effects. 0 / 0.0%

Remove the negative effect from his death. 0 / 0.0%

Allow units to ignore friends routing 0 / 0.0%

Allow for Taisho challenges. 0 / 0.0%

09-20-2001, 04:57
Very good Take - a collection of bugs and problems over months of forum posting. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I don't think this list will ALL make it in the new patch, but the major issues like morale for sure.
Tera

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Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
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LordTed
09-20-2001, 05:10
If these alterations take place, the MI shall be greatly improved. This would actually persuade me to buy it since my prize copy hasn't turned up.

Fuh Teng
09-20-2001, 06:29
Wow. I have never seen a list so thorough and complete and well done as this. Too bad it would take CA at least as long as it took them to make the game to get all this right! By the way. I really hope they do this!

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The Fuh (:

Swoosh So
09-20-2001, 09:32
Hold in there ted dont buy it, some peeps are shouting abit to make sure u guys get what u deserve, btw have u emailed ritchie recently?

Kraellin
09-21-2001, 02:28
situation: there is a bug in the way a third bridge on a map works. units wont cross it correctly, if at all.
data: in tests with adding 3 bridges to map i found that one of those bridges will always be bugged. the other 2 will work fine, but one of them wont allow the units to cross it correctly or at all.
solution: fix this bug.

situation: height editing has changed in the new editor and is not quite as efficient as it used to be.
data: the height numbers on the cursor were removed. whole map raising and lowering is too broad in how much it lowers or raises at one time. there is no more 'scroll editing'. you used to be able to edit anywhere the cursor was while the cursor was moving around and it would continue to edit height whereever the cursor was. now, no matter how you move the cursor while height editing it only edits that one location where the cursor was first placed.
solution: add the height numbers back in that show the height of where the cursor is. replace the new whole map raise/lower routine with the demo editor style. and replace the scrolling height edit with the old or add it back in as a secondary style of height editing with an option button to use either method.

situation: at least one model type eats too much texture memory.
data: the 'tower' model is a texture hog, eating 40% of texture memory all by itself when used. this limits severely the number of other models that can be used on a map when using the tower model. i like the models and wouldnt want to see them removed, but 40% all in one model is a bit much.
solution: redraw the tower model using fewer textures, and any other model that uses more than about 20% of texture memory all by itself. at 20% we could at least have 5 different models on a map. even 20% is a bit high. 10% would be a much better number if possible.

those are the major items on my wish list for the editor. if you wish to see more of them there is a topic in the mods forum that lists the full list, but i dont expect a patch to handle them all, so i've only included the major ones here.

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

TakeshidaSo
09-24-2001, 04:45
3). UPGRADES>
Upgrades of equipment, Weapons and Armor, should be the same cost, no matter which unit is upgraded. The cost of the unit should not be the basis for calculating the cost of these upgrades. Legendary equipment could not be so easily, or cost-effectively, provided to inexpensive units.

Solution:
Establish a set cost for equipment upgrades. Maybe the highest costs now incurred; 120 koku for the first level, and 144 for the second, etc.
Alternate:
Disallow equipment upgrades.

Major Robert Dump
09-24-2001, 06:15
.

Heavier armor should mean slower movement.