View Full Version : Reinforcement problem (After patch)
I just tried the patch out. Mori 1550 scenario, expert.
I attacked the notorious monk ronins in Yamashiro, numbered 1800. My army was an almost full conditioned 16 units, 12 monks (at least silver shiled), 4 YS, daimyo and 1 YC.
The enemy thought I am weak so they aggressively came to me, resulting their bittter defeat. I chased as usual, taking the head of their general, and got a kill ratio about 2:1... Yet...
The enemy reinforcement appeard...
What the !Q@$#@%#%@#^@#$
They appeared on the same side now, but on the very FAR FAR ends - on my far far left, and on my far far right. Tons of monks, ND, archers, all camping in the red zone.
With all my strength I finished the left group, but I lost to the right.
You can say at least there are some improvement, but it is still IMPOSSIBLE to defeat an outnumbering army with this kind of reinforcement pattern. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
When they come from different places, there are chances for divide and conquer - which is not an option anymore. Also, I would say most of the maps provided by the game has a higher ground towards the edge (the red zone). This means the enemy reinforcement now all camped in the higher zone, without your reach, and all stayed together!
This sucks! !#@$#$%#
[This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 09-29-2001).]
Swoosh So
09-29-2001, 07:10
A battle against superior numbers should be a hard long drawn out affair.........
Hey Maltz.
Rather than the reinforcements coming on anywhere on the map, they're restricted to their half of the battlefield - actually, it's anywhere on the border 90 degrees left and right from their "home point", unless they come up against a river.
The whole random reinforcements thing was a countermeasure ( or overkill, as some people prefer to term it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ) to armies camping on the edge of the map and scaring the reinforcements off as they come on. They also come on in multiple groups so they give each other additional morale support just in case they come up against unforseen enemy forces.
What you experienced was a bit of an extreme case - multiple units mustering on opposite sides of the map at the same time. If we reduce the angle of the sweeps - to, say 45 degrees either side of the home point - we run the risk of reintroducing the camp-and-scare tactic.
Anyway, this is this patch is still a beta and so subject to change, and this sort of feedback is the sort of thing we're looking for. Carry on playing it for a bit and see if there's anything else that crops up that you're not to keen on, and that goes for all of you. We'd prefer it if you're happy to play our games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
BTW, the "home point" is the point where an imaginary line drawn from the centre of the map thru the point at which the general first stands ( or the centre of your deployment circle ) intersects with the edge of the map. This is the point that all the routing units head towards - and the point to which the camera swoops to when you press HOME.
Right. It's been a heavy week. I'm going to bed.
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Quote MagyarKhans Cham:
i even suspect Target is coming here to hype things up.[/QUOTE]
solypsist
09-29-2001, 08:43
i don't have any probs with the patch reinforcement; but i am still of the sense that oen thing hasn't ben fixed: my reinforcements showing up at all.
i usually attack river provinces and retire archers as they run out of ammo, time and again i've waitied around for reinforcements from my withdrawn archers and get nothing. usually by the time i have sent away all my spent men, i have half my army tiles left (8 units) and wait and wait for the other (at least) reserve units that never come. as usual, the enemy gets reserves as soon as a one of their units leaves the map.
Hosakawa Tito
09-29-2001, 09:48
I was afraid you were going to say that soly,damn it.
Maltz,beware of what you wish for,you just might get it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gifI didn't have a problem with the pre-patch random reenforcements except that sometimes they got stuck on certain maps,and the battles could be so damn long.Now the enemy reenforcements will be much more difficult to beat just as you described,because now they will be better able to support each other.I suppose it will be more realistic,but if my reenforcements don't show up as soly has related,it will certainly be more of a challenge.No more spent archers being withdrawn for fresh melee troops *sigh*.And if the enemy has cav reenforcements may Buddha have mercy on us poor weary archers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
Thanks Target and everyone's attention. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I think it is fair to say that there should be "a chance" for players to defeat an outnumbering army. I mean, with this new reinforcement pattern, there is absolutely NO WAY. So what I would suggest is to:
1. Make all army appear at the beginning. But the system might not be able to handle it.
2. So the reinforcement come from the very same path, right from the center. And they CAN appear together. In old STW they don't appear together and got scared off very easily. Right now we can get a compromise, giving a larger army some advantage of having their reinforcement to show up together.
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Talking about reality --- when the general is routed (or killed), the reinforcement should not be able to appear together I think. Imagining being in a big army, when the front army broke, we could just see comrades running towards us like hell - and yes it is the time for us to run!
[This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 09-29-2001).]
Konnichiwa,
I've played some sp campaigns, and I've NEVER had any big battle. If you don't like to be outnumbered on the field (I think it's very likely that you lose against very big armies) I suggest you to change your strategies.
Target, I'm very happy with the new reinforcements (I have seen them in a self made battle). Please let it be as it is now.
It's not that reinforcements don't show up, it's some sort of random event (please Target san correct me if I'm wrong here).
Reinforcements are underway, but you don't know when they'll pop up. I think that this is a very good thing.
Sometimes reinforcements pop up as soon as you lost 1 unit, other times some 10 reinforcements will pop up at the same time when you have only 4 units left. This is great.
In STW you countered the first wave and then you could chase them off the field, the 700 enemy warriormonks never showed up (to the worse: the first enemy units were often crippled 30 men lsam units). There was no challenge in winning such battles, now you have to think and consider many factors before you chase.
If you knew how those battles were fought in reality, you would applaud this implementation.
The only concern I have: if you allowed enemy reinforcements to come in with STW the game finally crashed. It couldn't handle all those dead sprites I guess (?). I hope that this is fixed in MI/WE.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
PS Maltz san,
I think it's fair to give the AI an option to win a battle. The 2:1 killratio you mention is very poor: 5:1, 10:1 and 20:1 is what you can get.
theforce
09-29-2001, 18:04
Consider you selves lucky guys mine doesn't work online http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
"I cannotlog-in l presume so l shall stay among those you have probs with conn" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com
BSM_Skkzarg
09-29-2001, 18:38
Sorry Maltz,
But I can't back you on this one. I like the way the enemy gets their reinforcements now. Its much more realistic. Yes - it makes the battle difficult still, but not impossible. Try this - put a screening force between the two groups - they try to form one army after all. The screening group will slow one side - which you then flank. Trap them between two forces and crush them. Or - do like I do - let the 2 forces join - then crush them. Its hard - but not impossible.
After all - if one can take on 2 16 unit armies that are allied on the field at once - taking out a single 16 unit army of reinforcements isn't that bad.
CA folks - DON'T change that side of the reinforcement issue PLEASE! If you could make it where I get my reinforcements on a more regular basis - that would be appreciated!
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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."
Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
PS Maltz san,
I think it's fair to give the AI an option to win a battle. The 2:1 killratio you mention is very poor: 5:1, 10:1 and 20:1 is what you can get.[/QUOTE]
I cannot imagine how can you defeat the AI in Yamashiro (H5 monks + archers, ND) with that kind of ratio on expert though.
The new reinforcement pattern gives the large army clan an absolute advantage where they can rarely lose a battle, there is no doubt about that.
Thank you for your suggestions, but Yamashiro ronin might be an extreme case - the monks cannot be routed this easily. The two sides tend not to join together, so I cannot really surround them well worrying about my back.
Finally I managed to win in 2 battles. In the first one, I routed the enemy and quickly withdrew everyone back to my side. However, on the half way many enemy monks catched up with their speed, but they were crushed by my multiple small units. Just when I finished the first batch (of 6 or 7 units), the second group appeared with about 10 units - still monks, ND and archers. They were smarter and stayed together. I lost to that group as my numbered was thinned to about 10 - 20 in each, and my men were all exhausted and turned around quickly.
The finally kill was 9xx vs. 7xx (me). However, the second battle was an easy-win, because most enemy monks were killed in the first. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I feel that a lot of people tend to support whatever the game settings are - it is a way to prove that you are "smart" so you can adapt to the game. But it will prevent the game from further improving. I also finished the expert campaign in 20 years, but it does not mean I love the settings and others don't like it because they suck. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
After all - if one can take on 2 16 unit armies that are allied on the field at once - taking out a single 16 unit army of reinforcements isn't that bad.
There is a big difference though. In one case, they all apear together and you can win them once for all (there is a morale chain reaction when you started to rout them). But in the SP case, the enemy reinforcement appeared fresh and well moraled. So actually it is harder than the first case.
CA folks - DON'T change that side of the reinforcement issue PLEASE! If you could make it where I get my reinforcements on a more regular basis - that would be appreciated!
Lets wait and see what are people's reactions when they really get more experienced in the campaign. It is still early to say whether this change is good or bad I guess. If everybody thinks it acceptable then I will go with that, too. But right now I still wish to report my feelings that this change is not very constructive. Thanks.
[This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 09-29-2001).]
solypsist
09-29-2001, 22:01
i dunno. the methods of enemy reinforcements work okay for me, gives my guys a chance to rest and reform themselves (usually atop a high hill) or set aside a few units for flanking ambushes. as stated before, my own reinforcements not showing up is still a problem.
Regarding giving the larger-army AI a chance to win: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Yes I totally agree with that. However, it should be done with more realistic settings.
THe most ideal situation would be to put them out all at once (see if we can achieve that technology in CTW!).
If there is not enough system support, then we resort to segmentation. The extra units should be viewed as the same army that were brought onto the battlefield, and their morale is closely linked to the first group of units deployed on the battlefield. If the first group of army got defeated and routed, they should appear quite panic and disorganized, especially when the commander got killed. A good example is the battle Oda Nobunaga killed Imagawa Yoshimoto. It was a 2000 vs. 30000 (something like that ratio). Nobunaga killed Yoshimoto, and the rest of Imagawa army fled / retreated. If the new STW setting is true, you will be able to see waves and waves of very organized Imagawa army keep coming and finally bury Oda Nobunaga alive. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
To term it "reinforcement" is not very good I think, because the extra troops belong to the same army, same commander. However, reinforcement is a good idea. When one province got attacked, there can be an option asking adjacent province to send reinforcement, led by another general. Then I 110% agree these reinforcement to appear on anywhere of the map, organized and well supported. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Thanks!
Maltz,
I think there are reinforcements because you move them into the province as a different army. In any case, I did beat the AI defending Shinnano on expert difficulty with 1800 troops to the AI's 2600. The hill gave me an advantage, but I did have to eventually withdraw all of my initial units, and then retake the battlefield again with my reinforcements. I prefer having better defined sides to the battlefield, and the idea that you have a harder time defeating a larger AI force seems good since the economic cheating seems to have been removed from the AI, and you don't see these really huge AI armies.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
This is going back a bit - did the origional STW also put reinforcements everywhere? It's so long since I last played it as I've been playing MI that I can't remember. I seem to remeber one battle where I had routed the first wave and I had my entire army at one end and the reinforcements always appeared next to them. Took one look and fled again. I'm not one to complain about an easy victory http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif but was it always like that?
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Fight first, ask questions later.
The new system works fine for me,
Maltz, if the General dies then all the troops of that army loose the morale bonus that he game them, and when I lost Hojo to the Mongols, Yari Ashigru in fact ran 'on sight' against MHC (just like target said they would)...I see no problem there.
I do have a problem, when your reinforcements arrive they are already 'quite tired', and these other rein problems...
I also tend to end up fighting with 12 or 13 units after reinforcement as the game doesn't re-inforce totally, I've also withdrawn 400 archers and had no rein, then in the same battle withdrawn one unit of 30 crossbowmen and recieved around 500 Cavalry Archers as reinforcement...the system isn't anywhere near perfect but it is a big improvement on the pre-patch version.
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do anything...pick me to pieces with Cavalry Archers, ride me down with Heavy Cavalry, break my lines with No-Dachi, slaughter me on your Spears, hit me in the flank with Warrior Monks, ruin my attack with Naginata, finish the job with Yari Cavalry, shower me with arrows from your archers...but nama amida butsu...NO GUNS
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