New patch wishlist....

[MagyarKhans Cham]

yes yes after playing a dozen game and some insults at my khans adress of players who could not beat him he have some impressions:

gamespeed
the gamespeed is high, esp when playing mongols. my khan noticed that no player could get up with the pace of the battles.

mongols vs koreans
it seems to my khan that in a mon vs mon+kor game the koreans are highly affected with fleeing mongols. that is realistic but it may appear to some players kinda odd.

mongol cav
if proper used mongol cav became even stronger that in teh old game since the spead and the morale enables them to make units rout easily, if proper used ofcourse.

therefor i want to refer erados idea, just lower the number of men in a mongol unit with 25%, so it becomes 45 men in a 60 men/unit game.

this has many advantages. mong cav takes a lot of place on the map, 25% less is pretty welcome. the hth combat of hcav is downgraded a lot and perhaps with the 800 koku even balanced.

what u think?

Muskets are too powerfull as well
The average i encounter now is between 4-6 and was 2-4 in the old shogun.

------------------
Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by MagyarKhans Cham (edited 10-02-2001).]

[tootee]

I agree with His Excellency. The game speed with mongol is pretty fast. And personnally I feel that in a 1v1, the game ends pretty fast because it never allows the routed army to rally back.. it just ends the game almost immediately. Maybe it just happened to be so in the few 1v1 I have tried with the patch.

I believe also some problem during 4v4 in mongol period.. the players seem unable to switch side when it was 5v3..

Looking forward to alpha version.

------------------
tootee the toothless warrior
------------------

[Erado San]

ALthough I agree with Magy's Cham all the way, let me remind you that the fact that this is a beta version does NOT mean that a lot can change.

It is called beta because it hasn't passed the official approval program yet. As soon as CA submit it to that program it cannot be altered.

So, don't get your hopes up too high, and don't expect Major Changes in the final release.

[Major Robert Dump]

The thoughts of Magy are good ones, but I have one thing to add: The patch needs some sort of feature that would allow me to win more often.

[tootee]

probably also add to win-loss a draw outcome. Alot of times battles are indecisive and there really aren't no winner.

[TosaInu]

MHC is still the uberunit. People always complained about wm rushes. I never felt any problem with monks: they are just expensive shooting targets.

MHC is very heavily armoured and very fast. To make it worse MHC has very big 'hidden' bonusses.

I've been editing Troopstats, I found it odd that MHC were so exceptional strong as their stats show only a small improvement vs JHC.

I copied the stats of JHC (Japanese Heavy Cavalry) to MHC (Mongol Heavy Cavalry), so both JHC and MHC did have the exact same stats.

I played Normal custom battles on the 100% flat and bare Green map. The Ai always controled a Honor 2 MHC. I controled the JHC. My H2 JHC was beated by the JHC, I barely scratched them. A H3 JHC was beaten. A H4 JHC was beaten. Am I that bad? So I tried a Ai controled H2 JHC vs my H4 JHC. I won big. I am not that bad.

Back to mongols: my H5 JHC lost. The H6 (!) JHC finally won, but it was quite hard to do so. Honor 6 vs honor 2, that means the mongols have 8 more morale points (not necessarily, actually quite unlikely, they might have more attack or such equivalent to 8 morale points) 2 more attack points and 2 more defence points than the Japanese. And recall, that is only a hidden 'small' bonus.
The default troopstats are like this:
Charge, attack (melee), defence, armor, morale.

JHC 5, 2, 6, 5, 4
MHC 6, 4, 4, 5, 8
(These values apply to a Honor 0 unit!)

Under fair conditions these stats show that MHC and JHC how about the same change to kill each other. The MHC has just a slightly better change to kill than the JHC as it has a bigger charge bonus (marginal) and 4 points more honor (???). That would mean, if JHC and MHC slaughtered each other at the same rate (say both kill 30) the JHC would give up and rout and the MHC will chase and kill more. On top of that MHC are faster than JHC, about 20%.

The stats as shown here would fully justify a difference of 200 koku. But as said the MHC also has a big hidden bonus.

I played a 3 v 3 yesterday. I had honorable oponents. Two of them were very skilled members of the honorable Rage clan. We fought on Totomi, each player had 6000 koku to spend. My two honorable allies chosed mongol invasion period Japanese, my 3 honorable oponents chosed Mongols, I used mongols too.

A chosed a Honor 2 MHC Taisho (800 koku) and 11 Honor 0 MHC (408 koku each; they cost nothing and do a lot of damage, I believe (no prove yet) that h0 MHC still gains the full hidden bonus: so they have 6 charge 6 melee, 6 defence, 5 armor and 16 (!!!) morale), 3 MongolSpears.

I placed the Taisho MHC and 3 MS in the front, the 11 MHC in one long line all along the edge at the back (I was centre player).

I asked Yuuki what to do, rush and deliver the first blow or wait. Yuuki suggested to wait (in case of a rush, I might have placed the line more to the front).

All I did for the first 15 mins was waiting, I didn't move one unit. Yuuki and a Rage did some skirmishes and Yuuki defended very well and gained some terrain. Our other ally (at the right) was called away from his computer due to real life, so it was 3 v 2 early in the battle till the end. I made two groupselections in the MHC line: a left and a right wing.

After 15 minutes Yuuki got some nice terrain (he was left defender in Totomi and conquered the hill on the other side of the dip). I ordered my left wing of H0 MHC (some 5 units) to charge Yuukis oponent.

All our worthy oponents had balanced mongol armies: MHC, LHC, Skirmishers, Spears, Guardsmen and Bombers. Here's the result of my unworthy action (thanks to UglyPolar san for his valuable Beta Logfilereader).
http://www.totalwar.org/maps/images/MHC.gif

It might have been a nasty accident, but I think that MHC are still way to strong. We'll do more tests with them (perhaps some clever tactics will crush those monsters).

P.S. the logreader is based on the old MHC unit cost of 600 koku!

------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 09-29-2001).]

[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 09-29-2001).]

[Krasturak]

Gah! We knew that the Mongol units weren't balanced ... isn't that why they put in the morale boost?

And suppose they didn't fix the over-strength of the mongols ...

Has *anyone* beaten a competent Mongol player using Japanese units (with the patch)?

[Erado San]

Well, with the patch the Mongols are still stronger. But it's more of a challenge now, and I have seen decent players with Mongols being beaten.

They are still too strong, but it's more acceptable now.

[LordTed]

Grrrrrrr demands X pack from EA

Ted, if you want it, go and buy it. Life sucks sometimes, but EA suck more.

Gah! Finally you are coming to MI Krasty...

Tera

------------------
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[MagyarKhans Cham]

tosa, can u also focus on eds idea to limit the unitsize to 45 in a 60men/unitmax game?

it woulkd be better to get some bonusses of teh mongolcav. my Khan plays with all cav armies and it is way too easy, almost boring for him http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[TosaInu]

In a 5000 koku battle one can buy 12 H0 MHC. In a small map they will cover the whole width of it and slay anything before them.

A wm rush is a big joke compared to a MHC rush. I haven't tried yet, but I doubt that a huge yariwall will do.

I think 45 instead of 60 will be fine.
I'll make a setup with 45 MHC per unit. It will help. I'll send you the files.



------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[Target]

Ted, gimme your address and I'll mail you a copy. Ask Kurando or Erado how to get into contact with me.

Target

------------------
Quote MagyarKhans Cham:
i even suspect Target is coming here to hype things up.[/QUOTE]

[MagyarKhans Cham]

what u ment with setup?

[Swoosh So]

target remember there are more people still waiting on their pizes. But good of u to sort out lord ted

[This message has been edited by Swoosh So (edited 09-30-2001).]

[Erado San]

Ok, Target,

I'll relay information I receive through mail to you, or should it go to The Shogun?

Mind you, I can't check if incoming mail comes from valid sources...

Ted, mail me at erado_san@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Erado San (edited 09-30-2001).]

[Haegen Akechi]

2 more wishes fo the final patch :

- all game modes (as king of the hill)in single player games available

- Option for randomly selected armies for attacker and defender in online games. This would be a real tactical challenge

------------------
Oh my God...they are coming...and they have carved sticks!!

[DoCToR]

tone down Muskets a little or make them more expensive...

at the moment they are just too devastating and if someone picks a whole load of them, it's impossible to get round them and flank without the jessies routing!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Haegen Akechi:
2 more wishes fo the final patch :

- all game modes (as king of the hill)in single player games available
[/QUOTE]

I think probably the AI is not built to handle these play modes...

Quote
- Option for randomly selected armies for attacker and defender in online games. This would be a real tactical challenge
[/QUOTE]

Probably not a useful feature because I guess very little players will use it.

Just my five cents http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

--tootee aka goldfish shimazu