CA...reduce the koku value of JHC, or increase their stats!!

[DoCToR]

Something Puzz3D said over email that i thought i would open to the forum....

He suggested rather than increasing monk cost, CA should look to decreasing the cost of the relatively unused and over expensive JHC unit.

Presently the YC = 475 koku
and the NC = 450 koku

So why on earth are the HC = 600 koku??!

Both the NC and the YC stand good chances against the HC and they also have their uses against other units being faster and more manoeuvrable than the HC.

Puzz3D suggested reducing the value to 500 koku, a value that still makes them more expensive than the YC and NC but a value that would hopefully encourage greater use of the HC unit in online battles http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

This way we may finally have see an answer to the many "monk rush" and muskeeter-based armies!

Either that or increase their stats to properly reflect their excessive costs in relation to the other cavalry...

Regards,

DrJambo Ouchi

[BSM_Skkzarg]

I have to disagree - Heavy cav are OFTEN misused - they are NOT your shock cavalry - nor are they your charge after a rout cav. Naginata cavalry are shock - yari cav is the rout exploiter. Too many people use them for these two missions - and then get upset when they are not effective.

Heavy cavalry is your DEFENSIVE cavalry. If your using it for anything else - your misusing it! In the Original S:TW heavy cav was more "all purpose" used both in attack and defense as it was the only viable cav unit that could do this. Yari Cav and Cav Archers have a special use - but should not be used in a general role. Now - in WE/MI - every cav unit has a specific role - and if you use it for anything else - it will suffer greatly.

While I agree that the Ashi/Guns and now the Monk/Guns armies are "rampant" online - the answer is not to change the units around trying to find a balance, but rather to not engage those who use dishonorable tactics to win. I do use JHC online - but not in large numbers. You don't need large numbers of them. Just as you should not buy pure naginata cav...
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Whitey]

I would tend to almost agree Doctor, but the problem was not so large before the arrival of NC because YC were almost useless against any infantry bar missile troops, but now the Japs have a killer of Infantry with NC it has rather removed that role from HC - I would like to point out however that HC do defeat WM in their present form and are more effective than other Cavalry at killing them, although this hardly seems to justify the cost.

The role HC are designed for is that of 'defensive cavalry' I have never heard of such a role for mounted troops before, it is not a necessary role for mounted troops, this makes them more or less redundant and therefore almost pointless. The answer I feel is not to boost or cheapen JCH, but to re-define its role.

The Japanese have three shock cavalry units

YC - Lancers
NC - Light Cavalry
HC - Defensive Cavalry

Why the CA team decided to make HC a defensive unit I could never tell, the HC should operate as 'Heavy Cavalry' in a more traditional sense of the word, Heavily Armoured Charging Monsters - Looking at their stats in the troopstats file, their base honour is WAY too low (4 as opposed to NoDachi's 8, Monks 8) and should be raised accordingly - The danger of making HC another uberunit is neatly removed by the presence of YS to slaughter them.

HC's Base Stats
Charge bonus: 5
Melee bonus: 2
Defence bonus: 6
Armour level: 5

This doesn't fit. The charge bonus is at least one too low, the Melee bonus is wrong (big men big horses heavy armour...almost worthy of 'trample damage' yes?) The Defence bonus is too high I think but the Armour is OK.

Conclusions - HC is the 'wrong unit' without an effective role in STW in its current form, it should be re-modelled on a more traditional HC form to produce a more useful unit as it is not the price that is the problem, but the implementation of the Heavy Cavalry on a defensive cavalry model, which makes it a far too conditional unit.

just my thoughts

[This message has been edited by Whitey (edited 10-02-2001).]

[Whitey]

heh - you posted while I was writing...nice to see we're on the same lines here http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[BSM_Skkzarg]

HEhehe Whitey!

Well - I do have to say that your right - JHC is defensive. However I have to disagree - they do have their uses. Defensive Cavalry is needed in a balanced army. Its mounted naginata basically. Look at it like this - You have a group of enemy Naginata Cav bearing down on you - and you have no spearmen close enough to intercept - use your heavy Cav to engage - slow and delay the enemy until the proper unit can appear! They are not intended to be used as head to head fighters - but as skirmishers to delay an attack until you can properly respond. Their high defensive value means they can last long enough to do this and then back away once the enemy is engaged properly. Their speed, while not great, is suited to this role as they should be stationed near the flanks for quick reaction. While not "fast" - they are more than superior to footmen in a race - and they can tear a path thru Yari Cav alone when necessary. Just back them up whenever possible - especially against JNC as they won't last against them.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[DoCToR]

Quote Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
Heavy cavalry is your DEFENSIVE cavalry. If your using it for anything else - your misusing it! [/QUOTE]

I appreciate your view but just when are you going to use HC in a defensive manner? Against Monks or No-Dachis? Surely a flank attack by the quicker less expensive YC or NC would be just as effective if not more so....Naginata can also fill this role again at a cheaper cost than the HC.

If they are defensive they won't be used against archers and musketeers then as that would be construed as an attacking venture and again more suitable to the faster YC or more importantly the higher moraled NC....

And so, we come back to assessing what are HC to be used for? Defending against NC? Although because NC can be upgraded more cost effectively because of their cheaper initial cost they may actually be more likely to beat a defending HC unit!

So i feel your argument falls short since the idea of cavalry being a defensive unit is somewhat contradictary to the whole idea of cavalry?! Look at the charge bonuses they possess...

Anyway, my main suggestion is to lower the cost of HC to make them a viable choice as opposed to the YC or NC....as it stands they are the more useful units and indeed also cost less!!

Regards,

DrJambo http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Rath]

I think the morale is about right for the JHC as u have to figure in the the horses' tendancy to scare.

I agree that their price should be lowered as they seem to be caught in a limbo of trying to cover for a number of roles without doing any of them with enough competancy to constitute a 600 koku price tag.

I think they should be about 500 koku...as they have the bonuses of being able to go toe 2 toe with monks and also have extra speed but the cons of having a severe weakness vs yari units and lower morale...so 500 would sound about right imo.

Rath...

[DoCToR]

Quote Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
You have a group of enemy Naginata Cav bearing down on you - and you have no spearmen close enough to intercept - use your heavy Cav to engage - slow and delay the enemy until the proper unit can appear!
[/QUOTE]

Why not just use the cheaper YC unit, they will defeat NC 1 on 1, as i found out against EuroLord the other day!

Failing that face NC with the cheaper NC unit, either way they are both cheaper options and just as likely to succeed if not more so....

Again, there is very little use for the HC.

The NC seem to me to be what the HC were initially meant to be....cavalry killing machines with a high morale value http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The HC don't even have a high morale ffs?! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif


HC..............NC..............YC (spear bonus)
Charge 5......Charge 4......Charge 8
Attack 2......Attack 5.......Attack 2
Defend 6......Defend 2......Defend 3
Armour 5......Armour 4......Armour 3
Morale 4.......Morale 8......Morale 2
Koku 600......Koku 450......Koku 475

Please try and justify why there is a 150 and 125 koku difference between HC and NC and YC respectively?

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

DrJambo Ouchi


[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 10-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 10-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 10-02-2001).]

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Hmm... seems we have a difference of opinion here mate. To answer your question - why not use yari cav or naginata cav to counter a enemy naginata cav, the answer is simple. I can take a JHC, intercept the incoming unit and then hit it with a spear unit - losing fewer men total than you will if you hit it with your lighter cav. With yari cav you may have just a few men left - hit with JNC and you may or may not even with the fight - if all things are equal. Slow em down and hit em with naginata or flank em with another unit and you will have a whole lot more men in BOTH units still able to carry on your battle. The key to winning is maximizing the enemy casualties while minimizing yours. I would rather lose 20 men in a JHC and 15 in a naginata group than 50 to 60 (including rout) of JNC or Yari Cav. The other key you seem to neglect is that if your naginata cav loses and routs - with the new morale setting your risking a huge chain rout by your entire army if it loses. Once that happens - your not very likely to be able to pull off a win.

Hey, its a matter of opinion - I am sure you have a valid point, I just can't agree. But hey, we are both entitled to our opinions, and we are both right in our own way. As long as your enjoying the bloody game, its all good.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[DoCToR]

Uhuh, valid point...but yet again the cost of one HC and one YS just to deal with one NC?

800 koku v 450 koku !!!

Not really cost effective on the battlefield...elsewhere you'll be severely hampered by that kind of difference.

Either a modified YC or NC, still cheaper than the combo you've mentioned would be a better, more cost effective means....?! No?

Thus leaving your YS to be used elsewhere in the battle...

Regards, and of course i respect your opinions....that's why this debate is good http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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Online name: DrJambo Ouchi

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Indeed it is.
The difference is for 450 koku - you have a one shot unit - use him again and he will be so weak as to not do much. On the other hand - spend the extra 150 on the Heavy cav and u have a unit that you can use at least twice, sometimes 3 times, before you worry about a rout. To get the same you have to purchase what - 2 or 3 of the others? I guess its a question of are you units throwaway, or do you want them around for later. I figure that I may spend more per unit and have fewer, but if I can get a 2 or 3 to 1 kill ratio I will still win.

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[DoCToR]

but the HC morale is 4 and the NC is 8?! So surely the HC will tend to rout quicker itself! Plus, more importantly, HC will be more affected by surrounding units routing than the likes of ND, Monks, Kensai, BN or NC, which with their higher morale can work more independently from the main group??

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Drj

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Online name: DrJambo Ouchi

[barocca]

i always thought Heavy Cavalry were the 'elite' units of an army,
Inherently Impetuous, with a high 'shock' value.
Historically charges from Heavy Cavalry were used to break up infantry formations.

With the advent of firearms their role changed to adminstering the 'coupe de grace'.

I also believ the JHC need some form of adjustment, I never use them online, they are too easily destroyed by Yari's - both foot and cavalry. They are also susceptible to missile fire.

A morale boost of some sort, and a reduction in cost, even making them 550 koku, slightly dearer than monks, but more manouverable,
although once mellee starts manouver counts for little.
I feel a morale boost is a must.



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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://doragon.cjb.net)

Lol come on guys...defensive or attacking unit...a HC is damn too expensive to be beaten by a cheap yari infantry.

I don't think it should be reduced of price...but I think the best thing is to increase its stats. The HC were really the elite samurai troops...

Tera

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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[Puzz3D]

Doctor,

I don't actually remember suggesting that HC be reduced to 500 koku. I think the NC is under priced. It's basically a mounted WM. I would make NC cost 500 koku, and make HC maybe 550. It's a bit puzzling to me that HC doesn't do better than it does against WM. The HC has 20% better melee stats than the WM. Maybe the HC is getting fatigued more quickly than the WM while it's fighting.

I agree with BSM_Skkzarg that the HC should be used as a defensive unit, with an eye toward preserving their number. As long as they don't incur heavy losses, their morale will stay up. Their presence can act as a deterent to a flanking maneuver by your opponent because he doesn't want a fast high morale unit to get hung up on an HC while a pumped up ND or YA comes out to finish his unit off from behind.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[DoCToR]

Ahh it was in an email you sent, although i think you're right, it was 550 koku you suggested http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[DoCToR]

In my opinion, anyone using HC is either a newbie or a veteren who enjoys the challenge with them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I almost never see the HC unit being used online.

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Online name: DrJambo Ouchi

[RageFury]

Well Nagi Cav r better against shock troops and they kick the shite outta Heavy cav...for a fraction of the cost.

Yari Cav kick the shite outta heavy Cav for less money.

Yari Sam kill all three but nagi Cav kill more of em.

-Fury

[Swoosh So]

Before everyone goes off shouting have they tried reducing the honor of h cav to 1? after all i was lead to believe h cav have high morale see how an h1 or even h0 h cav fares before screaming CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE!


lol i may be wrong but i used h1 h cav in battles where h2 was the norm and they still did a very good job, Try it .......


Swoosh

[Satake]

Quote Originally posted by BSM_Skkzarg:
Indeed it is.
The difference is for 450 koku - you have a one shot unit - use him again and he will be so weak as to not do much. On the other hand - spend the extra 150 on the Heavy cav and u have a unit that you can use at least twice, sometimes 3 times, before you worry about a rout. To get the same you have to purchase what - 2 or 3 of the others? I guess its a question of are you units throwaway, or do you want them around for later. I figure that I may spend more per unit and have fewer, but if I can get a 2 or 3 to 1 kill ratio I will still win.

[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you should change your tactics. Depleted units can still do excellent work , just don't send them head on on units. Try hitting the rear of a unit , even though your troops may be less men , the enemy can't hold off an attack from 2 sides and will crumble.

A 600 koku unit should not be treated as a porcelaion unit - a monk costs 500 koku and you can bounce him around with little risk , why should you have to treat a 600 koku unit like porcelain? It just doesn't add up.



[This message has been edited by Satake (edited 10-04-2001).]

[DoCToR]

Hear hear! Satake you are spot on there...

Quote Originally posted by Swoosh So:
Before everyone goes off shouting have they tried reducing the honor of h cav to 1? after all i was lead to believe h cav have high morale see how an h1 or even h0 h cav fares before screaming CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE!


lol i may be wrong but i used h1 h cav in battles where h2 was the norm and they still did a very good job, Try it .......


Swoosh[/QUOTE]

Actually you'll find that HC only have a morale (honour) value of 4 whilst the NC have 8! So NC are twice as likely to remain in battle than the HC......and they are 150 koku cheaper than the HC http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[Matrix2]

Very true, doctor, I agree with you.
I think their morale should be leveled up to 8, or even cause a morale drop on the enemy when they appear. It is sad that it seems most people do not agree in increasing their primary fighting ability.